New (improved) Cams For Ca18 And Ca20

Hmmm interesting!

I can't remember for sure what the Euro is. But I think 256DUR and 4.11 at the valve. I do know that the Nissan catalog with the specs in it didn't say anything more thatn that.

Looks like the stage two is a little warmer that the Euro.

Anybody ever order from these guys? Know where they're at? Thinking I might grab that. My Euro was $200 years back.

I was going to order nismo cam (eurocam) but I think I'll go with this as well.

So stock is 248 for exhaust and 240 for intake.
Valve lift is 0.354 for intake and 0.394 for exhaust.

Nismocam is 256 degrees for both exhaust and intake, and 0.413 inches of lift.

But numbers for the IPP cams dont make sense to me:

Stage #1 Specs:
Cam Lift: 311 INT, 311 EXH
INT & EXH Duration @ .020 is 260
Lobe Centers: 110

Stage #2 Turbo Specs:
Cam Lift: 317
INT & EXH Duration @ .020 is 255 INT, 255 EXH
Lobe Centers: 110

Does the bigger cam lift on the stage 2 outrule the longer exhaust time the stage 1 has?

And the cam lift is nowhere close to the stock specs?

Your right Praiz! Good thing you caught that.

I don't know what to do now. I have a desktop, but I'm missing all kind info to use it.

I'm a sucker for a cam to!

The stage 2 looks nice think I will be getting this instead of the euro.....

Alright wrote to IPP and got the bold writing as answer:

Hi IPP

I would like to order a new cam for my ca18et engine in my nissan 200sx 86 turbo.
You seem to have these two products IPPWEB-460 and IPPWEB-40EX suitable
for that application, but when compared to stock numbers, cam lift is nowhere close.
Is cam lift = valve lift for you cams?   Our lift on the timing card is valve lift .  The duration is not degreed in the motor so the duration #'s on the timing cards are what is on the master before in goes thru the rocker in the motor.  The specs he is giving for the duration , ask him where that is checked at?n Usually the manuals  give the # at .010 or at the seat.  Let me know.  Merry Christmas, tell Jan Hi : )

This is what I find from the service manual for the ca18et engine:

Valve lift intake: 0.354
Valve lift exhaust: 0.394

Valve timing:
240 degrees for intake
248 degrees for exhaust

Best Regards
Omer

JonBAnybody ever order from these guys?

hmm

i wanna cam my ca20 LOL

Alright, basicly you have different ways of mesuring timing, seat to seat (when the valve begins to open all the way too when the valve is finaly closed) or at a fixed valve lift like .010 or .020 or .050 which are the standard mesure.  That means that when a cam as a 260 duration at .050 lift, it means that the valve is opened 260 degres on the crankwhaft while the valve is AT LEAST open .050.  If you compare this to a seat to seat reading, a reading of 260 seat to seat will lead to a reading of maybe 220 at .050 and a reading of 260 at .050 will probalby lead to a reading of 280-290 seat to seat....

Now, why is the stage 2 cam different from hte stage 1... it is because it's intended for turbo application, which is why it has bigger lift but smaller duration then the other one... here is why

Because turbo engine pressurize the charge in the intake track, if their is too much overlap on your cam (too much duration which leaves the intake and exhaust valves open at the same time) the charge tends to short cirtuit the combustion chamber right into the exhaust.  So you up the lift (which lead in bigger strain on the valve train and more loss of energy du to friction) and keep the duration low in order to have a bigger time/area of opened valves....

As far as lift goes, it it the lift on the cam lobe, you have to remember that your cam act on a rocker arm that has a ratio of something like 1.4 or 1.5 to 1 (I can't remember) stock lift is mesured at the valve so to know the total lift of that cam, you have to multiply the lobe height by the rocker arm ratio which I don't remember, but I'm sure someone will help me on that one

Tom

tommyAlright, basicly you have different ways of mesuring timing, seat to seat (when the valve begins to open all the way too when the valve is finaly closed) or at a fixed valve lift like .010 or .020 or .050 which are the standard mesure.  That means that when a cam as a 260 duration at .050 lift, it means that the valve is opened 260 degres on the crankwhaft while the valve is AT LEAST open .050.  If you compare this to a seat to seat reading, a reading of 260 seat to seat will lead to a reading of maybe 220 at .050 and a reading of 260 at .050 will probalby lead to a reading of 280-290 seat to seat....

Now, why is the stage 2 cam different from hte stage 1... it is because it's intended for turbo application, which is why it has bigger lift but smaller duration then the other one... here is why

Because turbo engine pressurize the charge in the intake track, if their is too much overlap on your cam (too much duration which leaves the intake and exhaust valves open at the same time) the charge tends to short cirtuit the combustion chamber right into the exhaust.  So you up the lift (which lead in bigger strain on the valve train and more loss of energy du to friction) and keep the duration low in order to have a bigger time/area of opened valves....

As far as lift goes, it it the lift on the cam lobe, you have to remember that your cam act on a rocker arm that has a ratio of something like 1.4 or 1.5 to 1 (I can't remember) stock lift is mesured at the valve so to know the total lift of that cam, you have to multiply the lobe height by the rocker arm ratio which I don't remember, but I'm sure someone will help me on that one

Tom

I know he didn't recomend the Stage 1 on a turbo because of reversion.

I'll have to go out and see if I have any rockers to get the ratio. I have no idea how much lift stock CA springs could take. It does say stock springs for the Stage 1 and the Stage 2 is slightly larger; hmmm?

I hate when they give only half the info on the duration like that. My euro just gave 256. I still dont't know if thats ADV of what and that was years ago. I should get of my lazy arse and try to measure it. I do recall seeing these a while back. And as I sit here and go through some of these numbers again, half of which are missing, I don't know that it's worth my while. I am curious to see how they compare. But I don't know that I'm $200 curious. If everything is what I think it is I stand to make about 8hp more that my Euro - Yea!

Pretty sure that's what happend last time I saw these now that I recall.

It'S not that I don't recommend it, but you have to keep in mind that you'll have to upgrade the valve srping, and your valve seal will not last as long as they are supposed too... but like everything, when you squeeze more HP outta your car, you have to pay the price in reliability or maintenance somewhere along the way.  

In my idea, it is an improved euro cam, but it's not suitable for stock use... the more lift you have at high rpm, the more force is required to push the valves all the way, and like that old principle of physics, with every action their is and equal oposite reaction, you have to have more force to close those valves... here comes the need for bigger springs, but bigger springs require more force to push down, so they rob more energy and transfert it to heat by way of friction (you don't have roller rocker arms anyways) and by closing the valve with more force, you use up the seat faster...

here is the theory anyways.  it is a good way of increasing HP but you gotta make sure the rest of the valve train can take it.  

And for 200$, it is one cheap mod that will keep on giving results with your futur mods...

Tom

That's a good point on the springs. It'd be best to call the manufacturer and ask what to use.

But on the other hand; I don't know that where there yet. I have the Euro and I'm not floating. Being that the duration isn't exactly wicked on the turbo version there I don't know that your gonna be moving peak power outta the stock rev range. Being that your lifting the valve more the open pressure is going to increase but the seat pressure will stay the same. So I don't know that we'll start bouncing or floating the valve with the stock spring with either of these cams. If we were to go to a heavier spring it would add to the wear.

They mention that the Stage 1 is for stock springs I think. I don't really think that it'd be a problem. With the increased lift there also an increased duration, so I'm guessing the ramp isn't totally outta hand there.

I'd maybe just chesk check the coil bind on the stage 2. And call it a day. I'm not very worried about my CA20T you the truth (I'm like 20k worried definatly not 50K worried). I wouldn't look for a heavier spring unless it started floating.

All cams have been designed above stock performance, and do not require spring replacement.

There are also VG cams available. Hmmmmmm...

im totally camming my 20e.

PraizewoodThey say both the cams don't require upgraded springs on top of the page. Just gave an order on the stage 2 cam and a set of performance valve seals. I will swap everything as far as the valve seals guides and valves to new and hope that will be able to take the extra strain. Will write my experience with the new cam once installed.

Thanks tommy and JonB

where can we find upgraded Valvesprings for our cars?

I don't know if aftermarket as something for the sohc CA, but your best bet is to just go to a spring shop and bring them a stock one for dimension and all, then ask them what they can do... they should know better then you what could be a good updrade... it's always cheaper to deal with the manufacturer then to get your money stolen by a company that sells "performance upgrade" outta the box...cheaper but a little more complicated, just my 2 cents

That makes sence I guess I'll have to look into it....Thanks

HAHAHAHA.. CAMMING THE CA20!!! :lmao:

On a side note, let me know how that works out if anyone does it.

Looks like I'll have a another s-12 in the next mnth or 2. I'll use one for the swap, and keep the other mainly stock for running up town and to work and stuff... I have never had a vehicle with anything close to as good of fuel milage as my lil nissy.

I could sacrifice a bit of that mileage for a bit more response/ get up n go..

But isnt the general consensus still remaining that theres no point in building up the ca20e beyond the ability of its McPukes french fry stick piston rods...?

Im just wondering how these cams would affect it overall...

Just more HP, more torque?

Alter the response to the throttle? change the range of where the usable horsepower is kinda thing.. ?

I was never all that clear on the overall effects of changing the cams.

I understand the gist of it, like open the valves farther/more, for longer to allow more air/exhaust gases to enter and escape.

Im just not 100% on the counter effects and such.. the trade offs.

cams are one of those things I've never actualy touched on aside from a bit of roller versus slider versus hydrolic kinda thing.

Strange you should ask.; Other than lost gas milage the only real affect is going to be poorer throttle response.

To my knowledge, here's what's going on;

It's one of those common misunderstandings that a car with alotta power is going to have better throttle response. In all factuallity the the exact opposite is true. Jump in a "Built" motor and it's gonna have the farthest thing from throttle response at lower rpms you've ever seen. If wild enough your gonna have to move the idle up. What's going to happen is the overlap is going to be increased due to the larger duration. What this is going to do is make the motor less efficient at the lower power rev-range and able to breath better at the higher rev-ranges. With out the volume of large throttle openings and higher piston movements(rpm), the motor is actully going to lose pumping efficiency. There fore it will take more movement of your right foot to get the car going, but it will have more power.

As far as the affects on the rods; The rod strenth comes into conceren at rpm and piston weight. I'm sure there's a point where massive cylinder pressure will destroy a rod, as will detonation. But the main reason why a rod breaks is rpm and piston weight or detonation related. If you don't over-rev it, and you don't detonate it, chances are it's not going to break. The bottom end really doesn't know what the top end is doing, unless it pre-ignites, it pretty much only knows how fast it's spinning. In boosting a motor, the cylinder pressures are really high and the motors become more prone to detonation. If just a little lean the explosion becomes really violent and hot. Also with the higher cylinder pressures, poor fuel, poor fuel ratios, and hot spots in the cylinder can also lead to detonation. Usually what you'll see there is a rod bent, or bent till snapped, but what these guys seldom show you is the specked, chipped, and burnt pistons that tell the real tale of that cylinder detonating(you can see this in the rod bearings to). An over-rev is usually a stretched rod bot or a rod pulled apart; fracturing and sending chunks all about.

The cams mentioned earlier(I could look into it further) aren't wild enough to move the peak power out of the factory rev range. There's limits of the intake and exhaust flow capabilities to consider also.

There's also air-speed throught the port that affects pefromance/throttle response, but being we're not talking about porting and different intakes; I don think there's a need to get into that right now.
Snappy throttle; pretty much gone.

Just purchased the camshaft here for  $180 Bucks plus shipping. My distributor driving gear on the cam had been grinded down due to a headbolt breaking off and flinging a washer in between the two gears. So i have ordered all the parts Necessary to rebuild it. Will re-post on how if i see any improvment.