Feeler thread for Strut Tower bars for s12s, and Carbon fiber hoods.

Started by psycolistic · Oct 5, 2011 · 137postsSMF 2010–26

psycolisticOct 22, 2011, 7:37 pm · #51

(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k520/psycolistic/Strutbrackets.jpg)

So here is the design for the brackets. We will have them done tomorrow at the soonest. Also these are just mock ups, the actual brackets will be similar with different welds.

night_s12Oct 22, 2011, 8:25 pm · #52

Lookin good cant wait to get one

NapstaOct 23, 2011, 3:12 am · #53

This is starting to look promising! I cant wait to see a finished bar! Any update on the colors that are available yet?

psycolisticOct 23, 2011, 11:17 am · #54

Napsta on 03:12:55 AM / 23-Oct-11This is starting to look promising! I cant wait to see a finished bar! Any update on the colors that are available yet?

Right now just blue. I have an appointment with the anodizing place tomorrow. And i will have a list of colors

DirtyGazeOct 23, 2011, 12:42 pm · #55

Hey, Im down to be one of the first to buy the strut bar. Its looking promising and I have both an MK1 and MK2 hood to check for clearance. Plus being so near to a few others on here (namely gustard and LowXII) I can verify hood clearance on a SE VG as well as single cam KA MK1 hood (if both of them let me test install)

psycolisticOct 23, 2011, 1:10 pm · #56

DirtyGaze on 12:42:44 PM / 23-Oct-11Hey, Im down to be one of the first to buy the strut bar. Its looking promising and I have both an MK1 and MK2 hood to check for clearance. Plus being so near to a few others on here (namely gustard and LowXII) I can verify hood clearance on a SE VG as well as single cam KA MK1 hood (if both of them let me test install)

Awesome. I'll post any updates, i will have the first finished product this friday. i will post pics as soon as it is done.

Wolf DilworthOct 23, 2011, 9:00 pm · #57

Looking Promising... As long as there is a SE version in the works. LOL

psycolisticOct 23, 2011, 9:11 pm · #58

Wolf Dilworth on 09:00:22 PM / 23-Oct-11Looking Promising... As long as there is a SE version in the works. LOL

I just need measurements

SlickS12Oct 23, 2011, 9:37 pm · #59

Wolf Dilworth on 09:00:22 PM / 23-Oct-11Looking Promising... As long as there is a SE version in the works. LOL

Id say for simplicity, do two types: one to fit the tightest up against the mk1 hood as possible, then one for the mk2, with highest clearance possible. That way no matter what engine goes in, as long as you have a corresponding hood/bar you'll be good.

psycolistic on 09:11:08 PM / 23-Oct-11I just need measurements

sorry no usable information from my post. Id lay out a few measurements if I had a car tho ;)

s12oldschoolerOct 24, 2011, 4:23 am · #60

I'm down as well...I'll place my order as soon as the strut bars are ready, got an 87 notch with Ca20e...please keep us posted psycolistic!!!

Slip n SlideOct 24, 2011, 9:42 am · #61

I've got an 87 SE and would also be willing to buy as soon as you start selling.

psycolisticOct 24, 2011, 10:21 am · #62

SlickS12 on 09:37:11 PM / 23-Oct-11Id say for simplicity, do two types: one to fit the tightest up against the mk1 hood as possible, then one for the mk2, with highest clearance possible. That way no matter what engine goes in, as long as you have a corresponding hood/bar you'll be good.

That was something we were trying to work on.

Post Merge: 05:37:57 PM / 24-Oct-11

here are the colors we can get it anodized.

(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k520/psycolistic/IMAG0213.jpg)

s12oldschoolerOct 25, 2011, 12:29 am · #63

Nice! Can't wait...

JayOct 25, 2011, 1:37 am · #64

Anodized?
So this is an aluminum bar. with a steel plate....
Bolted together? Not solidly welded? As in still has points that pivot?

Or is it ALL aluminum, welded together, with no pivot points?

MaxpowOct 25, 2011, 10:32 am · #65

Jay on 01:37:19 AM / 25-Oct-11Anodized?
So this is an aluminum bar. with a steel plate....
Bolted together? Not solidly welded? As in still has points that pivot?

Or is it ALL aluminum, welded together, with no pivot points?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9WjcGdxuM

psycolisticOct 25, 2011, 12:28 pm · #66

Jay on 01:37:19 AM / 25-Oct-11Anodized?
So this is an aluminum bar. with a steel plate....
Bolted together? Not solidly welded? As in still has points that pivot?

Or is it ALL aluminum, welded together, with no pivot points?

It is bolted yes but the way we are setting them up is so tight there isn't any wiggle room. they will be completely solid. We are also working on all steel idea with one pivot point.

this is the all steel one, which we may actually make all aluminum. haven't decided quite yet. please let me know inquiries and concerns with this idea.

(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k520/psycolistic/DSCN1396.jpg)

Wolf DilworthOct 25, 2011, 7:56 pm · #67

I am with Jay on this one... Not at all interested in pivots.

SchizophrenicMCOct 25, 2011, 8:46 pm · #68

If I wanted pivots, I'd stick to the bars of unknown origin I already have that seem to fit. These suddenly sound unappealing.

psycolisticOct 25, 2011, 11:07 pm · #69

Wolf Dilworth on 07:56:53 PM / 25-Oct-11I am with Jay on this one... Not at all interested in pivots.

SchizophrenicMC on 08:46:44 PM / 25-Oct-11If I wanted pivots, I'd stick to the bars of unknown origin I already have that seem to fit. These suddenly sound unappealing.

That's what the other one is for.

(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k520/psycolistic/DSCN1396.jpg)

This one has only one pivot point.

night_s12Oct 26, 2011, 1:23 am · #70

Im still down. Once i have the money lol

JayOct 26, 2011, 2:55 am · #71

I'm out. Not even going to speak my mind on this one. And THAT is worthy of a
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9WjcGdxuM

SchizophrenicMCOct 26, 2011, 12:36 pm · #72

One Pivot > No Pivots

Still too much wiggle room.

Wolf DilworthOct 26, 2011, 8:48 pm · #73

SchizophrenicMC on 12:36:54 PM / 26-Oct-11One Pivot > No Pivots

Huh?

I think this is hat you meant: One Pivot < No Pivots.

No one has ever convinced me that pivots do anything to help stiffen. Just a means of making one bar fit several different "brands".

Honestly the best solution is to brace the strut towers to the firewall/cowl area as well as directly across, a true truss system. Without the triangulation you just have a box, which any engineer will tell you is weak.

SchizophrenicMCOct 26, 2011, 9:00 pm · #74

I mean 1 > 0 and 0 is best

I_heart_VVLOct 26, 2011, 9:49 pm · #75

Wolf Dilworth on 08:48:00 PM / 26-Oct-11
Honestly the best solution is to brace the strut towers to the firewall/cowl area as well as directly across, a true truss system. Without the triangulation you just have a box, which any engineer will tell you is weak.

i agree with this 100%, tying one flexy thing to another doesnt make much sense (http://smiliesftw.com/x/wtf.gif)

But even then, if S12s are anything like their older siblings (S13/S14s), even this wont help much more. Theyre known to have very thin firewalls. So it would still flex quite a bit even after triangulating the two struts with the firewall. Of course every bit helps, but i find i feel its too much work for the small gain. If a stiffer chassis is what you want, seam welds and (properly built) roll cages are your friend.

Most people just slap on strut bars cause theyre cheap and for the vanity factor anyway.

SchizophrenicMCOct 26, 2011, 10:22 pm · #76

A proper set of strut bars is a key factor in a chassis-strengthening setup. Of course, having a rollcage and seam welds will stiffen the chassis considerably, and are definitely necessary for strictly racing vehicles. But using proper strut bars increases chassis stiffness over the suspension, spreading turning forces more evenly across the lateral axis of the vehicle. Of course, there are ricey strut bars that do little to nothing, but a proper set is a good starting point for a chassis-strengthening course of action, and an easy way to get a little edge into your daily without ruining its creature comforts for a roll cage.

That said, proper strut bars don't pivot, because they're designed for a specific platform and its requirements, and don't have to. Pivot points introduce a mechanical weak point, which negates the purpose of chassis-strengtening.

psycolisticOct 26, 2011, 11:00 pm · #77

Well these pivot issues are ones i didn't know about, i'll talk with pigpen and i'm sure we could come up with a solid bar with brackets to compensate. The reason i saw for the pivot point was to work on the motor with only needing to remove a bolt or two so a bar wasn't in the way. (just making it simpler)

JayOct 26, 2011, 11:46 pm · #78

psycolistic on 11:00:14 PM / 26-Oct-11Well these pivot issues are ones i didn't know about.

With this comment I hereby rescind my statement earlier.
If you didn't know about pivot issues, I really have to ask this.
Have you designed this bar to allow for thermal expansion thus not altering the handling characteristics of the vehicle from a cold motor to a warm one? Or at least have done the calculations that the bar is still a proper fit between a cold motor and warm motor?
Also, have you considered modeling this up running stress tests run on it, to verify that it will not crack or mushroom the strut towers?

How are they welded? GTAW? GMAW? SMAW?

What diameter and thickness steel/Aluminum tubing and plating will you be using?

I'm really, really, REALLY not trying to be a dick, or crap on this. But these are factors that go into a bar, and there's a LOT more. This is the difference between someone having a serious problem with your product, or loving it. These are the difference between ebay quality, and top quality. for $150 to $190, they had better be of that top quality bracket.

In other words, will this bar actually help prevent opposing vertical (Torsional) flex within the chassis, or will it be just to prevent parallel forces acting upon the stut towers? Your answers will definitely let me know if it's both, one, or neither...

SchizophrenicMCOct 27, 2011, 5:17 am · #79

This is starting to sound about as engineered as a redneck Mustang

MaxpowOct 27, 2011, 9:37 am · #80

SchizophrenicMC on 05:17:20 AM / 27-Oct-11This is starting to sound about as engineered as a redneck Mustang

Play nice.

psycolisticOct 27, 2011, 11:18 am · #81

Jay on 11:46:48 PM / 26-Oct-11With this comment I hereby rescind my statement earlier.
If you didn't know about pivot issues, I really have to ask this.
Have you designed this bar to allow for thermal expansion thus not altering the handling characteristics of the vehicle from a cold motor to a warm one? Or at least have done the calculations that the bar is still a proper fit between a cold motor and warm motor?
Also, have you considered modeling this up running stress tests run on it, to verify that it will not crack or mushroom the strut towers?

How are they welded? GTAW? GMAW? SMAW?

What diameter and thickness steel/Aluminum tubing and plating will you be using?

I'm really, really, REALLY not trying to be a dick, or crap on this. But these are factors that go into a bar, and there's a LOT more. This is the difference between someone having a serious problem with your product, or loving it. These are the difference between ebay quality, and top quality. for $150 to $190, they had better be of that top quality bracket.

In other words, will this bar actually help prevent opposing vertical (Torsional) flex within the chassis, or will it be just to prevent parallel forces acting upon the stut towers? Your answers will definitely let me know if it's both, one, or neither...

Yes i have tested on both a hot and cold motor, the only way it effected the car was by making it stiffer so the body didn't twist or bend, it made it easier to correct the steering without effecting how the car handles (meaning it doesn't pull left or right, or make it harder to control).
The fit is practically the same between a hot and cold motor of course it will be off slightly on the hot motor due to expansion. but once on it fits just fine.
We took it rallying and drifting and it held up great. we let other people drive with it and it doesn't crack or mushroom the strut towers.
They are welded with GTAW & GMAW i prefer tig because it has the stronger hold, i only used the mig because i didn't want to warp the ears on the brackets.
The brackets are 11 gauge steel making then a little bigger than 1/8", i refuse to use a tubing so i chose to go with a solid aluminum bar that is 3/4" x 2'' x 35' and is machined into the shape, allowing it to keep the thickness, and also the width at the end. It is thinner in the middle (width wise not thickness) because it helps add for clearance and i modeled the design after a name brand strut bar that is made for racing.

Your not being a dick i feel your asking the right questions. I just got into the car scene and don't know too much, but i should have know about the pivot issue due to my fabricating background. Also as tight as the bar is in the bracket, even before the bolt is in, there is no play what so ever.

iceagegOct 27, 2011, 12:14 pm · #82

I don't know about you guys, but at 19 I had neither the knowledge, nor skill to undertake starting a custom parts buisness, only the motivation. When bringing any product to market there is a balance that must be decided between Research & Developoment and getting your product to market in a timely and cost effective manner. At worst what I see here is an enthusiastic young man who possibly didn't plan for enough R&D. The measure of the man and his buisness isn't his first mistake, its how he recovers. We have somebody who is trying to build parts specific to the cars we love. Who is to some extent sticking his neck out into a fairly small market. While he may have justified loosing our initial praise he should still have our support. At least until he can prove he deserves the praise again or proves he isn't worthy of the support.

Psycolistic,
There is a wealth of people and data here that can serve as a good starting point. You has a prototype that, while it might not be ideal or marketable can still serve many purposes in fitment and testing. You don't have to be a formally trained engineer to engineer quality stuff. You just have to do more research and testing to prove (or disprove) what you would have learned in that education. Read, test, re-read, re-test, read more, test more. Network and meet people who can provide knowledge and experience, people who have test equipment that you can borrow or rent. Provide data wherever possible beyond "seat of the pants". Having data to back up your claims makes it extremely difficult for your critics to come across as anything but jealous. It will extend your time to market but you will have far fewer problems in the long run. Remaining active in a forum like this and providing periodic updates about the testing and development efforts that are underway will ensure that you have enthusiastic customers waiting when it gets to market and they will be more confident in that purchase. Communities like this can be the life (or death) of your products. It all depends on the quality of your products and possibly more important, how you stand behind them. Keep at it.

Wolf DilworthOct 27, 2011, 11:07 pm · #83

Jay

You are getting way to deep into the details. Yes there are serious concerns to a proper design... Thermal is negated since the entire engine bay is going to grow along with the bar. Anytime you change/modify a design there will be adverse issues, stress cracks, not sure what the mushrooming is that you speak of but... Strut towers are very robust structures.

ProlowtoneOct 27, 2011, 11:44 pm · #84

I am still interested if you do ever decide to make one without the pivot point. but as stated pivot point= movement= non ridged.. I am impressed that you have made a bar this quick as at our age many people wouldn't attempt to make these things for a small market, but a little extra work may be needed.

Best of luck!
Jonathan

BoostedVGOct 28, 2011, 9:14 am · #85

I wouldn't get a bar because I make my own but a se hood would be awesome if you could make the bulge about 3/4" taller. On the vg se it would allow for a nice custom intake manifold that would accept an 80 mm throttle body.

DirtyGazeOct 28, 2011, 2:08 pm · #86

Im with the other guys, pivot point sucks, but you seem to understand that now. I still support you full heartedly. Best of luck, and Ill still be one of the first to pick up a non pivot point bar.

ARRO!!! OR ANYONE ELSE WHO WAS HERE IN BARTS DAY! I remember seeing pics of Bart standing on his strut bars. His shit was rigid. I also remember some detailed pics and info as to how and why he modeled them the way he did. Does anyone have those pics? They might help this man out a lot. Im sure theyre still on here somewhere but im being a lazy ass and dont want to search.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/strut%20tower%20brace/strutbrace008.jpg)

(http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/2029/1821/30070910002_large.jpg)

(http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/2029/1821/30070910010_large.jpg)

I got unlazy...

BoostedVGOct 28, 2011, 3:47 pm · #87

Bart's bar has pivot points too.

DirtyGazeOct 28, 2011, 3:58 pm · #88

Yea, i thought they didnt..oh well. Still though, gives him ideas to play with

BoostedVGOct 29, 2011, 8:04 am · #89

I've been looking around the net and most aluminum strut bars have some kind of pivot point. Is it really that big of a deal? The bar I created for myself has pivots that are similar to Bart's. I adjusted it to where there is slight tension pulling the towers together and the result was more responsive steering and lower lap time.

iceagegOct 29, 2011, 8:32 am · #90

A triangle with no flexible corners will be stronger than a square with no flexible corners will be stronger than a square with one flexible corner will be stronger than a square with two flexible corners, will be stronger than an open top "U". Just depends how much work you want to put into it and how much rigidity you want to get out of it.

Wolf DilworthOct 30, 2011, 11:20 pm · #91

XXX Porn rigidity, please... LOL

psycolisticNov 5, 2011, 11:26 am · #92

(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k520/psycolistic/IMAG02201.jpg)

Here is a finished product. Sorry my engine bay is kinda dirty.

WonderingravenNov 5, 2011, 12:21 pm · #93

nice you cleaned up the intake egi ?
too bad that my intake stands a few inches higher =(

vegasS12Nov 5, 2011, 2:17 pm · #94

whats your cleareance from the intake mani.
since im doing a sr swap with top mount gt3076 clearence in my concern.............

SlickS12Nov 5, 2011, 8:50 pm · #95

so i know this is a prototype and clearance looks pretty good for the stock motor but just like wonderingraven, im worried about other motors such as the ka and vg.

EightySix200SXNov 5, 2011, 9:34 pm · #96

Ka sits bitchen high

S12tannerNov 5, 2011, 9:49 pm · #97

ill take one is it just for the front ? or the front and back? and for the carbon hoods sound sick if u could make one with the gazzelle scoop would be awsome

WonderingravenNov 5, 2011, 9:54 pm · #98

I can try to take some measurements of my VG, but between the VG and the hood there is like no room, might get away with a box bent one.

or maybe something more like this might work
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o146/wjayg/100_2979.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o146/wjayg/100_2983.jpg)

that is from the z31

This is my engine bay.
(http://www.g-funk.net/200sx/DSCF5421.JPG)
(http://www.g-funk.net/200sx/DSCF5422.JPG)
(http://www.g-funk.net/200sx/DSCF5423.JPG)
(http://www.g-funk.net/200sx/DSCF5424.JPG)

Hope it helps.

psycolisticNov 6, 2011, 1:53 am · #99

We are looking into adding clearance, this is a prototype i just thought you guys would like to see how its coming.

SlickS12Nov 6, 2011, 11:27 am · #100

Looking good, progress is progress just keep it up! ;)