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V-mount Intercooler With Ka-t......

Started by jaidedeye · Sep 11, 2007 · 20postsInvision 2005–09

jaidedeyeSep 11, 2007, 5:24 am · #1

i know that you have to cut the top radiator core support to run a v-mount. im wondering if there is enough room in the engine bay with a turbo KA. i like the idea of the v-mount due to its short intercooler piping setup and its really not that hard. ive seen it on a few s13's...i like the fact that the radiator and IC get even amounts of air flow

any experiences or opinions on this?

here is an sr20 with a v-mount in case someone doesnt know what it is:
(IMG:http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/nick3889/IMG_7742.jpg)

lvDaveSep 11, 2007, 6:41 am · #2

Cutting the radiator brace just sounds stupid to me. No matter how much bracing you put around it, it will never be quite as rigid again. I don't even want to imagine what would happen in a collision.

jaidedeyeSep 11, 2007, 6:48 am · #3
lvDave @ Sep 11 2007, 02:41 AM
Cutting the radiator brace just sounds stupid to me. No matter how much bracing you put around it, it will never be quite as rigid again. I don't even want to imagine what would happen in a collision.


i know what you mean..but the intercooler is there and attached to the to core support. so in theory it will be just as rigid. now i could see a big concern if the lower core support or the crash bar was cut but those dont need cutting with this setup
silverarrow27Sep 11, 2007, 4:39 pm · #4

Not safe for a daily driver in my opinion. If race car then go for it.

KA-T = SR in the space compartment. They're both 4 cylinders.

lvDaveSep 11, 2007, 5:00 pm · #5
jaidedeye @ Sep 10 2007, 11:48 PM
i know what you mean..but the intercooler is there and attached to the to core support. so in theory it will be just as rigid. now i could see a big concern if the lower core support or the crash bar was cut but those dont need cutting with this setup


The intercooler isn't meant to be a load baring part. The upper radiator support was designed to bare a load. I just don't think it's worth it.
S12 DrifterSep 11, 2007, 9:31 pm · #6

I really dont think that the radiator core support takes that much load... As long as you got some decent sway and strut bars I imagine that you would be ok. I was thinking of doing this myself a while back cause there is so much room in the front without a clutch fan.

asparagusSep 11, 2007, 9:40 pm · #7

LOL have you felt the radiator support? It barely takes any load, if any. A simple strut bar will do do more than make up for it.Just do it, it's easy and you'll get less lag since the piping is shorter, it'll be more baller, and fill up the empty space in the front of the bay. Remember to get a vmount vent for your hood. Front-end collision? Just don't do it. Here's hoping that you're experienced in welding aluminum and making brackets.

/thread

PaulSep 11, 2007, 10:59 pm · #8

I just think its stupid period, Sure the hot air comming from the intercooler doesnt help cool the radiator down but makeing it so the ait cant hit either one straight no is just retarded. Air doesnt like to change direction fast, Plus it makes your intercooler less efficient so that means hotter Intake temps, if your worried about keeping your engine cool then Just Dont fun an intercooler at all then you'll have the short piping the radiator will get the air it needs and your big fat aluminum heat soak device wont be in your intake track. Because really in drifting you spend alot of time sitting there droing burnouts and you never really get going that fast, plus you're going sitways so now the air has to enter sideways then go up in to the intercooler makeing the thing damn near useless Might as well get rid of it.

jaidedeyeSep 11, 2007, 11:17 pm · #9
asparagus @ Sep 11 2007, 05:40 PM
LOL have you felt the radiator support? It barely takes any load, if any. A simple strut bar will do do more than make up for it.Just do it, it's easy and you'll get less lag since the piping is shorter, it'll be more baller, and fill up the empty space in the front of the bay. Remember to get a vmount vent for your hood. Front-end collision? Just don't do it. Here's hoping that you're experienced in welding aluminum and making brackets.
/thread


i was thinking the same thing......its flimsy

Paul @ Sep 11 2007, 06:59 PM
I just think its stupid period, Sure the hot air comming from the intercooler doesnt help cool the radiator down but makeing it so the ait cant hit either one straight no is just retarded. Air doesnt like to change direction fast, Plus it makes your intercooler less efficient so that means hotter Intake temps, if your worried about keeping your engine cool then Just Dont fun an intercooler at all then you'll have the short piping the radiator will get the air it needs and your big fat aluminum heat soak device wont be in your intake track. Because really in drifting you spend alot of time sitting there droing burnouts and you never really get going that fast, plus you're going sitways so now the air has to enter sideways then go up in to the intercooler makeing the thing damn near useless Might as well get rid of it.


well considering im not a full time drifter, i also drag race and mess around on the highway once in a while. i feel that the setup will benefit me and its also something new on the s12..i want to do something different.v-mount setups have been proven efficient,the air is forced through both the intercooler and radiator..

lvDave @ Sep 11 2007, 02:41 AM
Cutting the radiator brace just sounds stupid to me. No matter how much bracing you put around it, it will never be quite as rigid again. I don't even want to imagine what would happen in a collision.


you make it sound like this is like removing the front crash bar.....now removing that is dangerous if you get into an accident
silverarrow27Sep 11, 2007, 11:27 pm · #10

Everything is there for a reason, it's there to take the impact and crumple up.

Stiff chassis' don't crumple, they tear apart.

seishukuSep 11, 2007, 11:32 pm · #11

On the original topic: I don't know how well a V-mount in the S12 would work, there isn't as much room as there is on an S13+ chassis. At least not with out cutting out the rad support and moving everything forward.

You could get away with a thick custom shorty rad and intercooler, that would give a good amount of extra room to work with.

asparagusSep 11, 2007, 11:44 pm · #12
Paul @ Sep 11 2007, 03:59 PM
I just think its stupid period, Sure the hot air comming from the intercooler doesnt help cool the radiator down but makeing it so the ait cant hit either one straight no is just retarded. Air doesnt like to change direction fast, Plus it makes your intercooler less efficient so that means hotter Intake temps, if your worried about keeping your engine cool then Just Dont fun an intercooler at all then you'll have the short piping the radiator will get the air it needs and your big fat aluminum heat soak device wont be in your intake track. Because really in drifting you spend alot of time sitting there droing burnouts and you never really get going that fast, plus you're going sitways so now the air has to enter sideways then go up in to the intercooler makeing the thing damn near useless Might as well get rid of it.


Let's not spread around information that isn't true. A vmount setup is very efficient, the air that goes into your bay after being shuffled and sucked in by the front air dam is not a "directly straight" flow. It comes in and surges where there are passages to let it out, if you can make an efficient vmount setup, the bottom of the radiator(the big empty space toward the ground) will SUCK OUT the air coming in, thus making the radiator efficient. When you install a vmount vent(which is required), the vent will SUCK OUT the air coming in from the top too, so the radiator AND the intercooler will both have direct airflow. Also, airducts makes life easy.

(IMG:http://www.arcinter.co.jp/arc/event/salon/up/01.jpg)

(IMG:http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/Cdoria/V-mount/1.jpg)

(IMG:http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/Cdoria/V-mount/2.jpg)

(IMG:http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/Cdoria/V-mount/3.jpg)

(IMG:http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/Cdoria/V-mount/4.jpg)

EternalNewbieSep 12, 2007, 1:22 am · #13

Yeah, V-Mounts are pretty smart. It's all about vaccum.

But, I don't think there will be enough room in the Twelve's engine bay.

asparagusSep 12, 2007, 1:31 am · #14

We just have to use smaller intercoolers, here's an example from a corolla. And for you nay-sayers who think that somehow, the super thin radiator support plays a big role with our structural integrity, all of the examples I've shown have the support in-tact.

(IMG:http://www.jtuned.com/media/gallery/articles/Toyota%20Corolla%2086%20Ron%20Woo/005.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.jtuned.com/media/gallery/articles/Toyota%20Corolla%2086%20Ron%20Woo/008.jpg)

This post has been edited by asparagus: Sep 12 2007, 01:33 AM

lvDaveSep 12, 2007, 1:55 am · #15

Well, I guess the upper radiator support isn't the most crucial thing. But I'd rather have it than not have it. I really like those setups that asparagus posted.

IggyEGuanaSep 12, 2007, 2:22 am · #16
asparagus @ Sep 11 2007, 02:40 PM
and you'll get less lag since the piping is shorter


Paul @ Sep 11 2007, 03:59 PM
Because really in drifting you spend alot of time sitting there droing burnouts and you never really get going that fast


Lag and Heat Soak

Both good reasons to go with liquid to air intercooling.

( http://www.driftopia.com/2007/07/ )

As seen is drag racing. It'll be the big thing before you know it. Guarenteed!
PaulSep 12, 2007, 3:15 am · #17
asparagus @ Sep 11 2007, 07:44 PM
Let's not spread around information that isn't true. A vmount setup is very efficient, the air that goes into your bay after being shuffled and sucked in by the front air dam is not a "directly straight" flow. It comes in and surges where there are passages to let it out, if you can make an efficient vmount setup, the bottom of the radiator(the big empty space toward the ground) will SUCK OUT the air coming in, thus making the radiator efficient. When you install a vmount vent(which is required), the vent will SUCK OUT the air coming in from the top too, so the radiator AND the intercooler will both have direct airflow. Also, airducts makes life easy.



Proof in air temps people say they are more efficient, I want number not peoples opinons of "Ohh that looks like it works well. Because Really I was one of those when I first saw it I thought it looked pretty cool so it must work good. But really if these people Care about cooling so much there are better ways to do it they just dont LOOK as cool.

Air to Liquid setups can be awesome if set up right, with a heat exchanger, a reservoir, the intercooler itself, a good high volume low pressure pump. They can cool the air temp charge way below any Air ti Air setup can and They dont take any space in front of the radiator which can sit in its NORMAL location and work like it was meant to.

Also about that Whole vacuum thing How do you know which has more vacuum just over the hood of your car or under it? IDK but wouldnt you think the one with more is gonna get more of the share of air so that means its gonna take air away from the other. So that means less cooling ability.

If the radiator has more vacuum behind it then the intercooler is not getting as much air as it could if it was in the airstream, but that also means you are now directing AIR under the car at high speeds, That will negate any down force you have added to the front of the car. Undercar areo is as important to keeping you on the road as Wings and other attachments perhaps even more so. So directing air to the underside of the car is not a good thing.

But if the Hood has more vacuum that means you may actually get a bit of down force out of it. But then that means that air is not running through the radiator. makeing cooling harder.

My biggest point is AIR does not Like to turn, like all matter it obeys the laws of physics "a body at rest will tend to remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force" air is no different. I mean Why is a 240sx more aero dynamic than a School Bus? Much fewer Flat surfaces for the air to HIT and then have to turn. Radiators and intercoolers Have holes in them for air to pass through yes but when they are angled they create little angled Walls for the air to hit and slow down creating restriction. There is a reason why a straight tube has less restriction than one with a Sharp 90* bend in it. So that makes it more likely for the air to pile on it self at a high rate of speed and create a High pressure swirl in your V Mount "area" making the air travel through both coolers at a slower rate than normal reducing the ability to pull heat from them.

Really I see no benefit from the setup I think its a waste of time to simply look cool because other Nimrods do it.
XanoSep 12, 2007, 3:24 am · #18
Paul @ Sep 11 2007, 10:15 PM
Proof in air temps people say they are more efficient, I want number not peoples opinons of "Ohh that looks like it works well. Because Really I was one of those when I first saw it I thought it looked pretty cool so it must work good. But really if these people Care about cooling so much there are better ways to do it they just dont LOOK as cool.

Air to Liquid setups can be awesome if set up right, with a heat exchanger, a reservoir, the intercooler itself, a good high volume low pressure pump. They can cool the air temp charge way below any Air ti Air setup can and They dont take any space in front of the radiator which can sit in its NORMAL location and work like it was meant to.

Also about that Whole vacuum thing How do you know which has more vacuum just over the hood of your car or under it? IDK but wouldnt you think the one with more is gonna get more of the share of air so that means its gonna take air away from the other. So that means less cooling ability.

If the radiator has more vacuum behind it then the intercooler is not getting as much air as it could if it was in the airstream, but that also means you are now directing AIR under the car at high speeds, That will negate any down force you have added to the front of the car. Undercar areo is as important to keeping you on the road as Wings and other attachments perhaps even more so. So directing air to the underside of the car is not a good thing.

But if the Hood has more vacuum that means you may actually get a bit of down force out of it. But then that means that air is not running through the radiator. makeing cooling harder.

My biggest point is AIR does not Like to turn, like all matter it obeys the laws of physics "a body at rest will tend to remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force" air is no different. I mean Why is a 240sx more aero dynamic than a School Bus? Much fewer Flat surfaces for the air to HIT and then have to turn. Radiators and intercoolers Have holes in them for air to pass through yes but when they are angled they create little angled Walls for the air to hit and slow down creating restriction. There is a reason why a straight tube has less restriction than one with a Sharp 90* bend in it. So that makes it more likely for the air to pile on it self at a high rate of speed and create a High pressure swirl in your V Mount "area" making the air travel through both coolers at a slower rate than normal reducing the ability to pull heat from them.
Really I see no benefit from the setup I think its a waste of time to simply look cool because other Nimrods do it.

vacuum is caused by a low pressure area pulling the air from a higher pressure area nearby, when air is moving over your car, its creating a low pressure area, but the air isnt moving as fast in your engine compartment, making it the high pressure area, so the air inside will naturally get sucked out if it has a space to do so through. Thus why a vent in the hood is necessary, because below the car pulls the air from the radiator because its already got open spaces, but the hood has no open passageway, so it needs one so that the air gets sucked up and out through it.

High school physics class finally paid off =)

This post has been edited by Xano: Sep 12 2007, 03:26 AM
NemisisSep 12, 2007, 3:36 am · #19

Not trying to start shit here, but the water-air intercooling system is badass... BUT from thing I've looked at, (granted, I have not done much searching) regular air-air is the CHEAPEST way to go. With the water system, you now need a small radiator, reservoir, pump, lines, and then the expensive intercooler itself... Not to mention the usual finding a place to mount all the stuff, as well as the intercooler piping, and 'cooler placement/ location.

Don't get me wrong, it is the way to go. It is the best, but also the most expensive (from the few things I've seen in the past). I'm even tossing around the idea of using that kind of setup in my next project (due to the engine is air cooled, and in a RR layout... got any ideas of what it might be? it was a very popular car back in the day, and it still is now!)

But as far as V-mount versus traditional... Eh, whatever floats yer boat. I think that someone should try to take the time and first do a traditional setup, and get it dynoed and whatnot, then do a V mount setup, and record the differences (granted to only things allowed to be changed are the intercooler and radator configuration, nothing else). I would be interested to see what the difference would be in racing and daily driving between the two.

asparagusSep 12, 2007, 3:54 am · #20
Also about that Whole vacuum thing How do you know which has more vacuum just over the hood of your car or under it? IDK but wouldnt you think the one with more is gonna get more of the share of air so that means its gonna take air away from the other. So that means less cooling ability.


Airducts, the key is airducts.

Also, another purpose of having a v-mount is to have very short IC piping. The shorter piping causes less pressure drop so boost is more responsive. With a VMIC, the the ambient air gets split up and cools both the IC and radiator, rather than having the IC behind the radiator and getting sloppy seconds on air at higher temps. Here's another couple examples of a good airduct design

(IMG:http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/nenhenry/Weld-S140049.jpg)

(IMG:http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e331/sr20goofus/V-mount/PDR_0793.jpg)

(IMG:http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e331/sr20goofus/V-mount/PDR_0767.jpg)