Listen Up

I want to make something clear: While Colin and I often rely on the group judgment for most situations, occasionally I can and indeed will make a decision for action ON MY OWN for any given situation.

This means if you do something that upsets me, I will not always throw you to the mercy of the Moderator team, and will simply take action on you directly. If you are constantly flaming and ranting and raving at someone, I WILL TAKE ACTION. If you are routinely spamming, I WILL TAKE ACTION. If you repeatedly break regulatory rules like selling format or posting content that is not permitted on this forum, I WILL TAKE ACTION.

Sometimes I WILL NOT hesitate or wait for a consensus from the team. I will simply issue you a warning, OR, IF YOU HAVE A RECENT WARNING FOR THE SAME THING, I WILL BAN YOU. This will be a temporary ban duration of MY choice, although usually only a day or two.

Make no mistake -- the other moderators are within their rights to act IN THE SAME MANNER, WITHOUT CONSULTING THE GROUP. Everything we do is documented in our section, and so we are accountable to each other.

As far as why someone gets temp-banned, like i said. It's REAL simple. You either have to have made the same mistake repeatedly (or very very recently, showing you disregarded a warning issued), or you have to have acquired too many warnings. IF YOUR WARNING METER IS 100%, and you do something wrong, however minor, YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ISSUED A TEMP BAN, AT A DURATION OF MY CHOOSING (or of the choosing of whoever is issuing the action).

If some of you asses can't understand this, then you're either stupid, or arrogant, or both. If you think it is arrogant of me to keep the rules and the INTEGRITY of the forum at a standard, then you are even stupider than anyone realizes. And PM'ing me (or whoever takes the action) and cussing us out? You really think that's going to help?

Given that you PM me with a CIVIL appeal, meaning you challenge it WITHOUT being an ass, there is a very good chance it can be removed with some discussion. But if you come at me with guns blazing, you will lose.

And as far as anyone who has been banned indefinitely, I have this to say -- it happens for GOOD reason, and with lots of discussion in our moderator section. And only after LOTS of attempts at civil discussion with the person. But if some of you think that it's better to be perma-banned, then feel free to simply leave. Nobody is asking anybody to leave, but your actions can cause that end result on their own if you wish it to.

Just remember that so far, the only person indefinitely banned this year recently had the nerve to ask one of us to post content for them. Frankly, you'd think if this place was so undesirable, that wouldn't have been a thought in their mind, but...

Like I said, the choice is yours as individuals. You can come on here and post, joke, and question each others' statements. Even heated debate. But there will be NO spam tolerated, NO flame wars tolerated, and no chastising the moderators for doing their job when they moderate the selling forum for format standards. All of these described mistakes are considered ABUSE of this forum, and abuse WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON CLUB-S12.

PERIOD.

Edit: If you have ANY doubt, I have had an animated message on my signature line for some time now, and if you read it, it basically says the same damned thing. It's an image I have seen a number of moderators use on other forums, which is how I obtained it. So obviously my expectations are NOT unreasonable or uncommon on the internet.

understood. and im a jackass i suppose, but what is "spamming"

posting useless or irrelevant crap in threads more than once.

why doesn't anybody get the fucking point we have one of these threads at least once a month because some dickhead is too hardheaded (no pun intended) to just be fuckin civil....I mean seriously c'mon

I'm sorry I'm always on your nerves Arro.

sideways_s12why doesn't anybody get the fucking point we have one of these threads at least once a month because some dickhead is too hardheaded (no pun intended) to just be fuckin civil....I mean seriously c'mon

sideways_s12why doesn't anybody get the fucking point we have one of these threads at least once a month because some dickhead is too hardheaded (no pun intended) to just be fuckin civil....I mean seriously c'mon

cliff notes?

ArroAnd as far as anyone who has been banned indefinitely, I have this to say -- it happens for GOOD reason, and with lots of discussion in our moderator section. And only after LOTS of attempts at civil discussion with the person. But if some of you think that it's better to be perma-banned, then feel free to simply leave. Nobody is asking anybody to leave, but your actions can cause that end result on their own if you wish it to.

Just remember that so far, the only person indefinitely banned this year recently had the nerve to ask one of us to post content for them. Frankly, you'd think if this place was so undesirable, that wouldn't have been a thought in their mind, but...

Redneck
Yeah so why is it that the person you indefinitely banned this year still says members under the group category next to his name? And why don't you just use his name? It is like the mods have the military "don't ask don't tell" policy towards banned or post banned members. I have been advocating for awhile if someone is post banned or perma banned it needs to say so under the group category they are indeed banned or post banned. This is very common practice on the vast majority of other car forums. I was shocked when I found out brewster240 was post banned for a long period of time by Draconis and you apparently didn't even know about it. And I didn't find out about it on cs12, I found out about it on the zilvia forums. Sometimes I wonder where people have gone that used to be pretty active on here but I never know if they are banned or not cause even if they are it still says members next to their name. I think it would be very helpful to make a new section when someone is post banned or banned that lets everyone know why this member is banned and for how long instead of people having to guess why someone is inactive for no apparent reason. I am still wondering what issue this thread really is originating from cause you wouldn't randomly just make a huge rant thread like this when what you have already clearly stated everything you just said in the forum guidelines (like not cussing out mods I mean no brainer). If people are being jackasses they need to be made examples of in the eye of the whole forum not just the mods which make up a tiny fraction of all the members. Otherwise how are we supposed to know what your talking about? If that was the case brewster240 wouldn't have been unjustifiably banned (according to what you stated) and people who need to be justifiably banned will be made examples of and the whole forum will know what their offense was.

post it up, you know where

i know ive been a little dickheadidh lately,so im sorry for pissin anyone off.lets squash it like a bug.

is everyone on club-s12 constantly on their period or is it just you arro?

hahaha.everyone.

rduranS12 is everyone on club-s12 constantly on their period or is it just you arro?

first off, and I'll say it quick and direct: rduran, shut the hell up man.

Second, I agree with Redneck. I have indeed been skirting the issue. Henry is the guy who got banned indefinitely. Why isn't he showing up as "banned" or "deleted" or whatever? Partly because I'm lazy to be honest, and partly because there is no user group called "Banned users", I deactivated it a year ago. Should I set it back up and use it? Maybe. Like I said, you raise a good point there.

But you're looking for me to be candid, and USUALLY I am not -- the moderation practices are our business. But I will indulge you because at this point I don't care either way. Why was Brewster banned? I don't fully agree with the reasons why he was banned, and I told Brewster that on zilvia. I told that to Colin. I unbanned Brewster. Honestly I stepped away for a few weeks because -- and omg can it be? -- I have a job and a real life, and it got a little busy. In that time, that shit happened. What did it have to do with? Well since you want full disclosure, it had to do with Brewster posting pictures or links or both to "Charity", who is supposedly Julie. I have my doubts about who she is or is not, but frankly I don't give two fucks about it either, although she did, and requested it be removed. As I understand it, Colin stepped in and ultimately banned him for it. In the end, it's partly why Julie is no longer active on here, and partly why she wasn't a moderator.

But back to Henry. Yes, let's use his name. Henry is a hothead. He's generally a cool guy from all I can see, but he lets his emotions and indeed his mouth get away from him. Many times he chose off people on here, and one of more of us had to step in. This was even before I was Admin. In the end, he decided to flame me when I updated the website graphics. Not *criticize*, but char-broil me. Way over the top. I locked him down from posting after it was clear that he was willing to take the flame-war across multiple threads. ONLY after that. Then it was in PM's, where as far as he was concerned, I was hurt because he criticized the graphics or whatever, when in fact all I was upset at was his way over the top method of doing so. Something I'd been upset at him for with other people in the past. In the end, he basically told me in so many words that he didn't care about keeping the peace and would rant and rave however and whenever he wanted. Well I think you all know what kind of moderation response that bullshit deserves.

So when some of you wonder what the fuck really happened, and why I've tried to avoid getting into it publicly, it's been out of an *attempt* to be professional about it, while some of you dickheads spread lies that Henry "left on his own", or that he was unfairly banned, or who knows whatever manner of shit-tastic junk gets shoveled.

SO why this time?

Well because someone did indeed do something to prompt it. Because every now and then, it seems like a new thread is needed to bring the awareness of the issue to the surface, even if some of you are annoyed by that. Because if I bump an older thread that says something similar, someone will inevitably bitch about *that* instead. Because Arro can't win.

Because in the end, I couldn't give a flying fuck what ANY of you think of me personally. *INSOFAR AS THAT* the general public can go fuck itself frankly. BUT, I DO care about the integrity of the forum. So much so that I've been made out to be the bad guy since the very first year. Which I said before.

So yes, this shit IS indeed in the guidelines. Then why can't some of these assholes follow them? They aren't horrible. But then they are rules. And as soon as we enforce them more than once, we are called Nazis by some of you fucking retards. Yes, I said some of you are fucking retards. Seriously, you whiny bastards -- if you don't like it, leave. The PRIMARY function of this place has ALWAYS been SOLID INFORMATION, and so allowing stupid dicks to post useless or hostile crap is NOT the purpose of this place.

Now back to the banning crap. Do we really want to see when someone is banned? They aren't always perma-banned. At least Redneck made the distinction between the two.

So you all tell me -- what the hell do you want? You want us to quietly and cleanly take care of business, or do you want us to throw them in the virtual dunce corner, and label them fuckups? I happen to think the latter of the two is yet more drama, but if most of you prefer to know who's in the penalty box and who isn't, fine. It's easy enough to do.

Honestly, I understand why some of you are wondering what the hell really goes on with the mods and admins. But as long as the information keeps flowing, and the flaming is kept to a minimum, and you're still able to joke and share funny shit, then isn't that the moderation team doing it's job behind the scenes? Isn't that enough?

You tell me. Because this thread is the LAST time I will be so candid with you all.

good work

you dont care about me though?  

mouthful and a half haha.

anyways, I can agree with arro on 99% of that post. TBH.

Drama happens, such is life.  Shit, i got promoted, and now one of my best friends/coworkers hates me and wont even speak to me.  it happens EVERYWHERE.

personally, when I mod, i try to be behind the scenes as well.  Its just easier to work shit out in a PM than in public.  In public, you got a thousand backseat mods trying to either feed or fight the fire, where as in a PM, its just you and them, so shit actually gets worked out.

I want to see people making a conscious effort towards being civil even if someone (wont name particular names) comes off as a complete and utter retard.

apparently in the time i've been asleep or training at work, I've missed quite a bit of shit going on.....

in the words of Peter. "Cmonnnnnnn"

fuck you for the 1% you disagree with. You're fired

Andrew can have your job.

lol

Arro fuck you for the 1% you disagree with. You're fired  

Andrew can have your job.

lol
 

Arrofuck you for the 1% you disagree with. You're fired

Andrew can have your job.

lol

arro it sounds to me like youre the only one whining.

but i guess i'll take mother's advice and shut the hell up.

feel better big guy.

rduranS12arro it sounds to me like youre the only one whining.
but i guess i'll take mother's advice and shut the hell up.
feel better big guy.

Nah I just don't like it when someone comes into a thread and says something without really paying attention to what they're replying to. I find it the mark of the lazy and the mouthy. And often the useless.

Arro, I fully agree.

A majority of my friends are considered "assholes". You do what you need to.

Since I've joined, all you've been is nice to me with the occasional remind about pic quality. I've said before, this forum is for the trading and learning of the wonderful but unappreciated S12. And even possibly make friends. Here on the east coast, that's a hrad thing to do. It a rare car in these parts, and even rarer to meet someone who can appricate it.

 If something sucks, don't call out like its the worse thing in the world. Everyone has their own opponitions, and it should be that way.

But, no one should change their mind on the simple fact that everyone thinks it better another way. If you think it might work, go for it. Of course do the research first, but sometimes, we're still in unexplored territory. Twin turbo, remote turbo vs front mount, full motor build... We all want to do what we think is the best for our car and what we think we would like. Some people might prefer it one way while others prefer it another. The point is to post and let people know what we have learned from our own experience and let them decide for themselves. May not be the best or most logical, but if they like the idea, let them go for it. Even if its a mistake, its still a learning experience thay can reflect on and still share with us.

Everyone is going to prefer it one way or the other but to flame an idea is plain and utter bullshit. If we stomped the ideas of those before us, not just cars, we would have never achieve the successes that we, the human race, have attained already.

Basically, quit hating and start appreciating the creativity of others and if it's been done in the passed and failed, kindly let them know what happened and why.

Who knows, they might be able to solve the problem others haven't been able to.

XanoSHH, Arro is a smart guy, he doesnt get pissed like this for no reason.

I mean seriously, hes been one of the few admins of a forum that HASNT banned me immediately, so he's obviously somewhat badass! =P

lol ok dude, you can have your 15 minutes of fame, what is your personal problem with me? Lemme guess, you think you can do a better job  You haven't even been here a year. You have no idea what kinds of struggles this place has seen, and you have no idea how many idiots have tried to disrupt this place over the many years of its operation, through not one but now five admins.

Not a personal problem. More of a professional problem. I don't think I can do a better job, I just don't agree with your harshness towards others or how you have this whole "fuck the world i'll ban you" attitude as a moderator. And as for not being here a year, i'm pretty sure february 08 to july 09 is a little more than a year, though not by much.

rduranS12 Not a personal problem. More of a professional problem. I don't think I can do a better job, I just don't agree with your harshness towards others or how you have this whole "fuck the world i'll ban you" attitude as a moderator. And as for not being here a year, i'm pretty sure february 08 to july 09 is a little more than a year, though not by much.

in what way am i trying to be "right"?

he asked me what my problem was so i told him. thats it.

Ahh fair enough, I misread it as Feb 09. And I can understand why you would think that practice would be "harsh", but the truth is that I actually do make a big effort to resolve things with users. Henry, I tried. Lord did I try. Over and over. And in the end, he's a stubborn asshole. But others know I have tried and even succeeded in working through issues with people on here, either as a mediator between two arguing parties, or between myself or another moderator and a member.

Lots of things are handled that none of you see but the person involved. I can only be seen as being harsh in certain situations only.

So I can understand your concerns. But think about this -- wouldn't it have been better to simply state that concern after my long explanation, rather than approach me with insults? You see, in the end I am harsh as a *reaction* to similar harshness. Not the other way around.

Oh and Ben, he isn't "right" or "wrong" about his views, only in the way he initially approached this in this thread (as I just stated).

rduranS12 in what way am i trying to be "right"?

personally rduran, I think your comment towards ME was uncalled for.

no im not on his nuts, i truly mean what I say, when i say I agree with him.

If i didnt, i would SAY i dont, which I've done before, and which is part of why I AM a moderator.  

The moderator team isn't like most mod teams elsewhere, Arro is intelligent, because he surrounds himself with moderators who will agree or disagree based on THEIR thoughts, not just agree because he says so.

Oh and believe me they sometimes get upset at me! Jeff got royally pissed once because I reversed a warning he issued, and he felt under the circumstances that it undermined his authority. And you know what? he was right. Oh and incidentally that was yet another David B warning moment  Which is sorta how this all began, after all...

ArroOh and believe me they sometimes get upset at me! Jeff got royally pissed once because I reversed a warning he issued, and he felt under the circumstances that it undermined his authority. And you know what? he was right. Oh and incidentally that was yet another David B warning moment  Which is sorta how this all began, after all...

hahah "balls across the nose"? That's a completely new one to me

Arrohahah "balls across the nose"? That's a completely new one to me

i know arro and the mods really helped me calm down and be able to take in information instead of arguing and being a dumbshit. THANKS GUYS.

Arro as a longtime admin and head of a hardware review website (lets just say fan boys are annoying, add in high IQ and things get nasty) I found that in general what you are doing makes the most out of a bad situation in playing internet forum cop.  However for what it is worth when I or any of my staff had to ban or warn someone, their actions were made public.

Cs12 does not, for several good reasons (its always easier for calmer heads to prevail in private) however once action has been taken, making it known via some means (group change, swapping out a sig or tagline on their posts, all kinds of options) means that everyone left knows something happened and in the worst cases publicly stating what occurred with the proof or links to the posts means you have in good faith done your part.Anyone who wants to question that can simply be pointed to the post and be done with it.  the current system leaves too much conspiracy and way too much room for bad information to "color" the admin team.

Its hard for the average person who knows someone over the internet (ie not very well) to believe that a generally good natured person to them would be a bastard to you.  proving that means you dont have to be the bad guy, you are just upholding the TOS.  At least this way its not all half truths and who knows how much BS coming from the general forum goers rather then the admins/mods.

TL:DR  I'd rather know about big changes or bad infractions from the leadership then piecing together the "story" from the forum and knowing only parts of the story and alot of assumptions.

Jager I appreciate all your comments... so if I understand correctly, you think we should indeed dump people in a special status and/or change their tagline/sigline to reflect this?

So far two of you have come forward with this, what does everyone else think about this? Should we do this? I'm very open to suggestions, and this may be a big one.

I say do it!

Personally, if the mods don't want to make the reasons public, that is fine. All that will cause is drama.

I agree with dumping Banned Users into a seperated Banned User group. I did that on a couple forums I admin'd and it worked nicely.

Well I added a poll to this same thread to see what you all think about how best to handle the banned users.

BEAR IN MIND that as of now, temp banned users are not actually banned, they are just not able to post in forums. They can still PM and still edit their settings. Right now Henry is "indefinitely banned", meaning he's like a temp ban without a time limit.

The system has yet another way to ban, it completely disables the account from doing anything, like a new account before validation.

So keep that in mind when you vote in the poll.

Giggity

Arro said big one.

I agree with making a separate group for banned users, yes

Temp Banned users shouldn't need anything because they will be back..

I know in IPB, they have a stock Banned Group that blocks the user from everything that works well.

Oh, btw   for asking what the community thinks about this. Always good when the community gets to have some voice in whats being done on the forum

I think we should make public the REASONS behind doing it, as well as the fact they are banned, whether temp, infini-temp, or perm.

Yes this will cause some drama, but it seems more of our drama here is caused by people NOT knowing whats going on.

ArroJager I appreciate all your comments... so if I understand correctly, you think we should indeed dump people in a special status and/or change their tagline/sigline to reflect this?

So far two of you have come forward with this, what does everyone else think about this? Should we do this? I'm very open to suggestions, and this may be a big one.

XanoI think we should make public the REASONS behind doing it, as well as the fact they are banned, whether temp, infini-temp, or perm.

Yes this will cause some drama, but it seems more of our drama here is caused by people NOT knowing whats going on.

JayEither way is going to cause drama. Personally reasons don't need to be said. I can see that causing a possible lawsuit against the website. Slander is not a good thing to have to fight against, and it's so vague that anything can fall into it. I don't say hide what a person did, but rather not come out and say "Hey, person a is banned for this reason".

my .02 tacos