I think it would be wise to make parts that can be used on as many of the variations as possible. Also when putting a car on a diet, most cars are too heavy in the front, so it makes sense to put carbon parts on the front. That way the car becomes more balanced front to rear!
So it would be good to see a hood, fenders or front lip produced!
Agree'd
i wanted to vote for turbo hood, lip kit and hatch because they're fucking heavy!
hoods will cost hundreds of dollars to buy and over a hundred to ship within the continental US... of course for those outside the US you would be looking at a LOT more.
Agree'd
gotta pay to play..
lip kits would probly sell pretty quick and shipping wouldnt be to crazy.. shit even fiberglass ones would be cool. maybe some one could come up with a good replacement to the armrest or c/f top of the door panels that always crack/rip/break/fall apart.
rollingstock on 09:52:45 PM / 24-Jun-11gotta pay to play..
lip kits would probly sell pretty quick and shipping wouldnt be to crazy.. shit even fiberglass ones would be cool. maybe some one could come up with a good replacement to the armrest or c/f top of the door panels that always crack/rip/break/fall apart.
/necro, and I apologize, but, would it really be that expensive to produce the molds? I mean, I've never worked with mold materials on this kind of scale before, but I was a member of a prop-making and costuming forum for a couple years, and I've got plenty experience with composite pieces. Even the biggest parts rarely broke $100 in materials. Then again, those were only roughly the size of a tall male torso. Even still, in terms of surface area, it wasn't rare at all to see a part with the same area as, say, a hood.
I mean, I guess we never had many structural issues to worry about, but would it really jack the prices up that much? And if so, what makes the process so much more expensive to replicate an automotive part than a life-scale statue?
(Not to say I don't understand shipping and single-part cost concerns, but I'm lost on what would make molding so expensive)
It is a matter of scale and wear/tear on the molds. For such a small market like ours, the initial set-up does not have to be that high, relatively. However, the mold will cost a bit more that $100.00, there is a great deal more structure to re-enforce a hood mold, so it can take the abuse of repeated uses.
I have several projects that I would like to get started, only need to get the; time, materials (money), and space to build them to coincide.
Well, I mean, I've seen people pull tens, if not over a hundred casts off the molds they've made, back on the armoring forum. Not that I'm discounting your experience, just adding my bit. Even still, while I accept the costs will be fairly high, I somehow doubt they'll be as steep as you've said for initial setup. I dunno, maybe there's just a different process and materials to make a mold for a car part, as opposed to a prop.
And I most definitely know what you mean about the project triangle.
Actually the process is very diferent. The major issue is size and structure/bracing. We are talking about a much larger mould than armor/props. Plus you can get away with a lot more surface defects on those types of parts, I am going to assume that the parts we are talking about here would be cosmetic and might even be produced using some type of clear UV gelcoat. Your molds have to be damn near perfect which takes time(lots of time) and before you even get to the mold stage you are going to have to have your plug as perfect as you can get it. If you do all of that right the first time and properly prep your molds you can maybe get 100 pulls out of them before you have to start accepting that more work will have to be done to the final product. You can expect these results only if you have used the highest quality materials and taken your time to do it right. Even a quick splash mold meant for only a couple of parts takes a couple of days to complete. That's 8 hour days working full time. Last place I worked charged $150.00 an hour for mold work and production work ranged from $65hr for hundreds of parts to $130hr for short runs. This was a big shop with lots of skilled people who would be able to do any of these types of jobs easily. Only problem is that they won't touch our stuff because there is not enough demand. So it fall to us to do it our selves. I have the skills and the resources to produce durable high end composite parts but I'm not doing it for free.
If you can build a c.f. Rear Hatch I would buy It for sure.
Post Merge
Id be down for some fenders.
This thread is well over a year old, and nothing has been produced. I'm locking this thread. When someone produces something (and doesn't just talk about it and claim they will do it) then a thread for an actual ready to order product can be created.
Seriously folks, these are S12's not Civics.
After locking this, we received a rather harsh email that seemed to blame Club-S12 as the cause for why people have no interest or desire in composite parts, and ultimately that Club-S12 is responsible for the reason why the S12 community is small. I was also apparently "shitting" on someone so I am reopening this thread, but not without setting some shit straight.
It doesn't matter if it takes a year of research or five years of research. The end result is all that matters. And money. People who own S12's are too cheap or just plain broke, and can't afford to join into group buys. If some of you who either want these parts or believe you can make these parts don't understand this fact, then that's your own fault. It has absolutely nothing to do with lack of organization. This is a small, niche community. The most anyone could ever hope for is ONE small run of parts. Even that is far fetched.
It certainly has NOTHING to do with how Club-S12 is run, nor me personally. It isn't because we as a community lack focus or organization. I think if this was a small niche but an expensive premium vehicle, the kind of owners you would find here would be well-to-do or just straight-up wealthy, and fabrications and group buys and such would be a reality. But these aren't rare and exotic cars. These are S12's. They were budget racers in their own time, and now in this shitty economy, they are budget buckets to drift or slam and look anti-cool (which is the new cool apparently).
I'm not "shitting" on any one person's intentions, but the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions. I have always been the kind of person who thinks talk is cheap. I have always valued putting money where the mouth is. And I see neither of that happening here in this thread, previous to it (over the 10 years of this site's history), nor in the forseeable future. Does that suck ass? You're damn right it does! But I can't BE everyone, and MAKE everyone be or do what I want them to.
I ran into this problem when we (Club-S12) wanted to put out another calendar installment of cars. And I personally got blamed for why there was no calendar. The bullshit jackassed problem with that is that I can't produce a calendar without decent to good pictures of cars, and that particular year, I had like four or five good pictures. People just weren't sending me photos. Or they were way too low resolution, or just poorly taken. I can't be blamed for lack of content. I can't go and fly around the world, taking pictures of people's S12's, just so I can guarantee everyone a damn calendar. Well guess what? This parts fabrication bullshit is the same thing.
So while I personally can respect someone putting in some time and effort to make molds and produce some prototypes, without a one-by-one order option and manageable prices, this is a pipe dream. Don't blame me. Don't say I'm shooting it down and that's why it's my fault. I'm just one guy. And even then, my personal opinion doesn't mean that others can't spend their money. But they aren't. And like I said, I'm just one voice. If people aren't jumping at the chance to spend hundreds of dollars on something they really don't need (but just like to fantasize about), that's not my fault.
Oh and one other thing. The idea that "taking a stab at the dark" is what would have to happen to just produce things is ludicrous. It's been said over and over and over and over and over again for years now:
- Hoods
- Turbo hood bulges
- Fenders
- Hatches
- Spoliers
- Dashes and center consoles
And those things should be so fucking obvious to anyone who's walked around the outside of or sat inside of an S12 for more than five minutes. There isn't much else we could really use or want on these cars. Maybe some bezels for the radio stuff but honestly, any one of us can get sheets of CF and trim and shape our own pieces over the course of an afternoon for that sort of little shit.
So let me summarize: stop whining. If you can do it, MAKE SOMETHING and SHOW US. Not just anything. Something for an *S12*. If there is EVER going to be ANY sort of legit desire (meaning money on its way over the internet via paypal), it's going to be because people have SEEN that SOMETHING has actually been made.
Oh and on a side note... this is CF. Not rocket science. I haven't laid CF myself, but I know people who have and after a great deal of discussion, we don't need structurally engineered shit. Just lightweight and reasonably rigid parts. Nothing we'd need would bear loads. So the kind of parts we would want could be made in someone's garage with a basic mold and some time. Nothing fancy, and certainly nothing requiring heavy engineering.
So this thread is open. For now. But honestly I still don't know why I'm relenting. There's no product. Nothing I or anyone else can personally order. No prices. No nothing. In the tech world we refer to this as "vaporware" because it exists only in the imagination of engineers. Not on an actual market.
Edit: and I don't really know who it was who emailed the admin account. I didn't bother to resolve the email address with a username here. I feel I have some pretty damn solid points here. I think about why I reopened this thread and perhaps it's because whoever you are, you have a right to respond to my comments here. Other than that, my original reasons for locking it were because I still feel it's pointless without actual product.
Am I really wrong?
bingo Arro, right on the money.
People are just now starting to say that what I paid for my car, $3,000 USD, was a fair price. I know when i first joined it was absolutely ludicrous to pay that much for an S12, even an SE-V6.
I know a hood or a hatch would cost as much as 90% of the regular user base paid for their whole car.
This was my email to Mr. Arro. "I am a highly skilled composite technician capable of producing a wide variety of composite products ranging from boats to tiles on the space shuttle, ornate carbon fiber items to structural aerospace components. I have a degree in industrial design and currently work as a Manufacturing Engineer for Boeing on the 787. The reason there are no composite parts being made is no one here is willing to shell out the dough to get anything into production. There is little organization here and that is what will keep the S-12 community what it is until someone can bring some focus to this group. Don't shit on my board because there was little interest. I'm not going to take a stab in the dark and produce what I think the community wants. Composites are too expensive to guess and so is my time. A year of gathering data is nothing. Thanks"
This was no personal vendetta against you and I only managed to swear once. I have noticed your rather foul mouth on other occasions but this is the first time I've been the "focus" of it. Arro, you do not know how to make composite car parts and I won't build junk. Anyone can produce this stuff in their garage. Problem is unless they take great care it will either look like it or it will quickly fail. I joined Club S-12 because I found a community of people who shared a passion for what I feel is a worthy car. I still love them. But as this was not a personal attack on you I fail to see why you felt the need to blow me out of the water. Do you feel responsible for where the club has gone? I wouldn't. You are only one person and this club was built by many. Please chill out and as you think that these parts are unnecessary leave this be. I apreciate your input and will take it into consideration. So far I have not seen enough interest to warrant my time in producing a mould. Till I do I will do what I can to be of help to those I can. If someone wants a oneoff part pleade let me know. Peace to you Arro.
There will never be enough interested for it to be worth your time. It's sad, but it's a fact. It's not that there isn't a WANT for it, it's just that there isn't the FUNDING for it. People freak out when their alternator goes out. That's a $80 part that we can just go to autozone and buy, right across the counter, no waiting. And you're thinking that there are a bunch of people here willing to shell out HUNDREDS and have to wait for something.
I doubt you could have even accomplished this group build/buy back in the early 90's, let alone now.
You know what Arro go ahead and lock it no one seems to give damn any way. Besides it would be one less competitor for "your money" any way. That was a low blow you ass!
Per request. The nerve of some people.
Oh, and I don't manufacture a single damn thing you nutjob. Ben and I just keep this forum up and running and updated with new shit so that you have a place to even TRY to get interest in.