Project: Phoenix

Ok so i guess ill start this out now. I am the one that ended up with this gem. yes it is one hell of a car. its in outstanding shape. the paint is so clean. you would never guess it was 27 years old, and yes I am the 2nd owner. I think that may put me in a very elite club of s-12 owners :yes: so anyway, thanks to the help of walon its now home and in my garage, just dyeing to be put back on the road.

Well I guess Ill start by giving everyone a lil history, at least what i know. This car was taken off the lot brand new sometime in 1983. the guy that got it was planning on retiring in 85 and got it as a gift to himself. well he didnt retire and drove this thing to and from work for about 13-14 years. he babyed this car like you wouldnt beleave. He said that if he was my age he would replace the motor and keep it, said nothing was ever done except he had the timing belt replaced at 96k. I guess something went wrong and the cranck pully snapped off when he was driving down the road, but he said it didnt make any noise, it just died. he looked very sad to see it go, took one last picture and he even wanted to back it out of the drive way when walon and i were there to tow it home, he may have even had a little tear in his eye when we pulled away.

Today I started pulling stuff off the motor to see how much damage there really was. first thing i found was a brand new looking head. from the outside you can tell it was rebuilt cuz all the grees build up on the block just stops when you get to the head and it looks new. I pulled the valve cover and the inside looks the same, so I am going to assume the head had to have been rebuilt, hot tanked and all. The cam shaft turns a little, it looks to be at tdc cuz the intake lobe is just starting to open the cylinder 1 intake valve. it doesnt move much past that and stops, i turn it the other way and the exhaust valve does the same thing. I didnt want to pull the head just yet, not quite ready to dig that deap, but i needed to know why i had so little range when trying to turn the cam, so i pulled the plugs and i could see that piston 1 was up, i checked all 4 this way and the 2 i could see looked good. so now im thinking that this motor may not be in all that bad of shape. if thats the case it may be back on the road sooner than later. anyway here are some pics of the car in my garage, as i go i will unload pics on this thread so enjoy, and thanks to everyone for any help.




here you can see the snapped off crank, If only they grew on trees

here you can see just how clean the head is,( and he said nothing was ever done) Ill take it, a new head, hell ya :yay!:

I know he wasnt compleatly full of crap, have you ever seen 27 year old paint that can still do this?

and the head lights work just fine...

damn you lucky bee!!!!

So, damn, awesome!  S12's are the business.

nice that is a nice silvia there, awesome find.

Man i wish my paint was in that good of condition lol....i have the same car and my paint is oxidized to hell :\

Nice car though. I do recommend if your thinking of rebuilding the ca18 dont because the amount of money i spent on the rebuild i could of swapped in a Sr or at least a Ca18det.

Ya I'm under a lot of presser on that issue. What I need to do is make it run again for a cheep as I can. If its running ok then my wife will be much more understanding on what I do to it. Once I get it up and drop the oil pan ill be able to know a lil more if it only needs a crank, then that's what it will get. For now.

Looks great man. Sounds like it's found a good home. A ca18det is a pretty straight up swap and would give you more pep then the ca18et.

Id love , just not right away.

Ok so today I dug a lil deeper. Took the valve cover back off, pulled the plugs back out, and I found a tap that wedges into the hole that's left on the end of the crank. Useing this I was able to turn the crank. First I turned the cam so all valves would clear, the I rotated the crank it spends freely, I checked all the plug ports and from what I can see everything moves up and down just fine. So I set the crank so all the pistons would clear and rotated through the cam shaft. All valves open and close fully, no issues. After that I figured id like to see how much compression the cylenders would make when hand cranking the thing. Stuck my compression tester in #1 and closed both intake and exhaust valves. Spun the crank and the needel didn't move at all. I even noticed that there wasn't any air moving out of the plug holes when the pistons would move up. So what's going on? I don't know, but as easy as it is to spin the crank it feels like there isn't any rings at all, and if there is, well, I'm going with not.

The good news now is that yes the head is good, and at very worst needs a valve job. Also thatt the rotating asimbly is probably good, but I need a crank cuz its broken. So that's where I'm at. As soon as I can do anything else ill post it here.

Really good find!  Reminds me of mine when I first got it.  Welcome to the club!

FACK Very nice grab dude. The ONLY other color i would want to have other then mine (But yours has a full turbo kit).

imo swapping out the complete longblock is ur quickest and cheapest option. itll get the car up and running quick and u can always tear down the original motor later

ok so not much to update, all i have done is really clean the piss out of this thing, i waxed it the other day so now, the good news is the women is finally over the whole thing, and her wanting it out is no longer a problem. i still cant really drop any coin right yet, (i really need a job first,) but what i can do is countinue to tear it down and get it ready for a new motor. i would also keep cleaning the bay and anyother hard to get to spots. so thanks for the coments, if all goes well i will be driving withen the next few months.

Ok, so everyone here knows how this goes. We sit around thinking how cool it would be to put motor x in our cars. Well, when you can't do anything but dream you end up doing a lot of that. Sooo keeping this thing compleatly stock is out the window. I have found way to many things wrong, that have To be fixed. I have been reading a lot into motors. A ca18det would be nice cuz its at home. Was in our cars other places, and is basicly the same block. However, they never sold in anything here in the us, so I need to know how to get by the dmv. My other choice at this point is a ka, and going t with it, but that's a more involved swap, plus its a non turbo motor. Really id rather not spend 2-300 bucks on a old beat up motor, if I am going to need to drop another grand in a few months anyway. I really just want to start driving it, but don't want to rush it so I'm going to ask everyone here. What do you guys think, ka or cadet. Who can help me find a busted det that has all the parts, that I can build. Ka's are a dime a dozon, but I need your help deciding. Thanks.

ca18det

get on the NICO ca section and read around. shoot a few PMs to knowledgable members there and see where they say to get one or if they know of one available. post a wtb ad on nico too. you can do it on Zilvia too if u want. I have bought 2 things on zilvia ans got screwed both times so i dont bother with it. nothing but con-men on there imo

i would still just toss in a ca20 longblock and run it stock with all the original stuff for a while. btw even if u snag a second hand ca18det that maybe needs work u will still end up spending just as much or more than what u would spend if u just bought one from a stateside importer. 1400 bucks or so with get u a fresh one with good compression, warranty, and no parts missing

how about the install. I have read through the tech section on it over and over, it looks easy enough, however easy isnt the only worry. will it pass as the org motor at the dmv. will the smog hut notice its a twin cam not a single. I had a guy that passed my colt befor it was even done, so I know there are ways around it. I just dont feel like dealing with them is all. the blocks are the same right, so do the stock mounts work, how about tranny? should i use the det tranny, or the stock one. I am starting to look into it now, I have some things lined up so getting the motor may not be to hard, but I want to make sure I get everything I can, or need.

if u do a very oem looking install you might pass just cuz ur car is originally turbo. but the evap diagram on the underside of the hood wont match up. i wouldnt even bother. dirty smog is easy and not that expensive here. making it look stock and have all the smog crap is a big pain in the ass anyways.

you can use the s13 trans that comes with the motor if u want. it takes more modification but after ur done the shifter will sit in a more comfortable location anyway.  or just use ur stock tranny. it bolts right up without any issue. dnt worry about wheather the B trans can "handle" the power or not. trannies can pop at any time on any car.

yes mounts work fine. the motor will (should) come with the mount brackets which will bolt straight to the s12 mounts.. or s13 mounts, s14 mounts, usdm/jdm, stock or nismo or any aftermarket or hockey pucks. doesnt matter.

the swap is very simple and straight forward. and rewarding. The ca18det is everything the S12 was lacking in the US originally.. POWER

IMO just get a reliable motorset from a reputable importer and swap it in stock, simplified, and refreshed. dirty smog, register and drive it. then do suspension as u desire (street or track) and then do simple and effiecient mods to the motor later

MAN i wish the car i inherited was that clean on the outside...

you could always get a SOCH ka... probably dirt cheap if your in the right spots.
not exactly the most powerful thing out there.. but it works.

ok so im having more and more reservations on swapping the motor. when i got this thing the plan was to stick with the single cam and go from there. i would love to take the easy road and just swap the det but for some reason the more i read up, the more part of me wants to ust build the et. so we will see. I just thought id put my thoughts up for everyone to read. when your jobless, and board out of your own head this is what happens.

When I was jobless, and bored, I swapped to a KA.
Just my thoughts...

Well if you do decide to swap I will def take your single cam off your hands....

^NOOOOOOO!!!!!! STOP IT!!! no more singles!

yawh, I sold my sohc ka for 100 bucks with tranny.  I'd go with the ca18det fo sho though!  I <3 mine

Lol I still have plans for the single cam so I will continue to collect parts for it.

ca18det bottom for reliability... shouldn't be too hard or expensive to dig out

i spent some time kinda braking it all down for my women, she had that blank "what the fuck are you saying" look, you know the one you get everytime you open your mouth about anything in front of someone that is machanically retarded. well i think i convinced myself to stick it out with the et. I am not going to swap out the long block for a quick fix, I am looking at a quick fix but it will start with a crank so if some one can hook me up with just a crank for like cheep or FREE,,,, then I can get this thing back on the road a lil faster. anyway, what I need other than that is a set of rings, barings, and a full gasket set, oh and the crank pulley. with that i plan on doing a nice clean up of the whole motor, a quick mic of the crank,(if needed) a simple drill hone, and then Ill put it back together like that. it may not have the best compression numbers because it may need to be bored out but I know that as long as there isnt any obvious damage, this will work fine, and will likely run another 60k or more miles. hell the motor only had 97k org anyway. so thats were i am at, when I am working again I will work on getting a rebuildable 2nd compleat rebuildable et, and i will work on fortifying it to handle around 225-250. thats about all i want, and because from what i can tell, that isnt really a stretch if you do all the suporting mods and build the bottom end. so anyway for now its onto my parts list. I amlooking for donations here!!!!! no really if you got some shit your going to toss, that looks like it could be used hit me up. The faster I find a crank, the faster another s-12 will be on the road.

Have you tried to put some oil down the plug holes when you did your compression test?? cuz you said the valves looked fine looking under the valve cover, but they can still be bended really bad without being able to see the damage from the top.  That would give you no compression at all... bad rings have to be really really really bad or missing (which I don't expect from a 97k engine) to not be able to give 1psi of compression....

best way to know the states of your valves is to lift the head up... but if you put down some oil in the combustion chamber through the plug holes and numbers get up or you get at least some compression, then you most likely have bad rings, if it doesn't help,  then your valves are bended all the way. 

If you add up the price of a crank (maybe free) but a set of rings, a gasket kit, a set of bearing, a front pulley, then you are speaking of a couple hundred bucks... and if your valves are bended, then you can expect even more.... all of that is probably higher than the price of a decent original bottom end, or a nice det bottom end, if indeed you don't need valves.  If you do, then it would add up to more than what a sohc or even a dohc ka would cost and both have higher numbers stock than the ca18et does, which makes it an upgrade no matter what...

I truly understand your problem here, I have a wife too... but in the end, all that matters to them is the total$$$ at the end of your equation... do the maths, you will not win by rebuilding the ca18et. 

Don't get me wrong, I really like the engine, and brits have pulled 300+ poneys out of them, but it is not a cheap option... ka24 with a simple bellhousing swap will allow you to use your current tranny/driveshat, no modifications required.  It slips on your stock motor mount, and wiring is like 7 spliced wires away... you can pull it off in a weekend on next to no budget, on your own...

for realies what he said ^

except KAs arent cheao here and the 240 kids have all the junkyard KAs on lockdown

imo either swap out the longblock with either a ca20e or ca18et quick and easy or go full status CA18DET swap. all that work and all those parts are gonna nickel and dime u to death. plus it might not run when ur done cuz the damage could be greater than u think. just snag a ca20!! make a WTB thread. or we can make a drive to socal. i need to go anyways

well if you wait a few months, I'll be junking my CA20E when I get it here to vegas for something better ;-)

Hey wondering what condition is that ca20? I may have to take it off your hands if deco doesn't want it.

well I do 100% both agree and understand you guys. and really at no time have I ever expected that this was going to be a   200$ project with a nice running car at the end. though for right now money is the biggest problem, its not always going to be. I am a union electrician, ya theres no work in vegas, now but this town always turns arownd, and with the fact that none of the casinos have been able to remodel for over 2 years now, when things really start getting better (by the way they reported a >50% increase in revenue for the last quarter) they are all going to start remodling, rebuilding, adding new towers. I make 40 bucks an hour working, when that happens, money stops being a problem. for now the only reason I am trying to find deals on parts or on anything really, is so I know I can get them/ have them, so I can just get started on something. I will be keeping the stock motor, but I will not be keeping it stock, the only thing that will change that for me is if when I do finally pull it, when I open it up if there is a hole or something in one of the cylinder walls, or something that would render it nothing more than a paperweight. I do appreciate your concerns, really I do, but the only reason I ever made this about money is because I dont have any, right now... anyway as for the oil thing, your right about the dry cylinders, never really thought about dumping oil in there to try and get a seal. I also still think its the head, I just dont think its the valves. mane reason is its all 4 cylinders, and if there were bent valves at most it would be like 2, plus I thought this was a non interference motor? anyway when I rotate the cam I checked the rocker arm clearances, and all 8 valves are withen specs. I dont know about any of you but if the valves were bent, i dont think they would close all the way, and that would leave a gap in my rocker lobe clearances wouldnt it? Hell I dont know, Im not even really a mechanic, I like working on cars but I am a hobbyist so I am sure I am way off on a lot of things.

Yeah that is one thing about vegas, one day there is work for union members and one day there isn't. That is one of the reasons why people love this town, there is always money to be made here, things always to be built, but that CA18et should be an interference motor, so maybe there is something else that happened inside eh? for it to loose the big crank pully like that, something doesn't seem right inside. Maybe things didn't get Torqued right and when it ran it went boom!

But if it gets to the point and you need money, let me know I'll defiantly buy that s12 from you ;-)

@sideways the CA20E I have the head rebuilt already, with all new 8 valve stems and so on, it's like a brand new head. I still have to pull the bottom half and get it resurfaced and rebuild the lower half. I'm saving up for an ca18det right now instead for that s12.

Sorry guys, but the ca18et and the ca20e are both interference engines... as almost every single nissan engines built those days (fj, vg, ka...).  Hell, they even had to develop a special non interference vg30 to drop in the mercury villager/nissan quest, because ford didn't want to have an interference engine in the van....

So yeah, snap the timming belt and you can kiss 4 out of the 8 valve that are in there goodbye... leaving at the best one cylinder untouched, one cyl with both valves out of business and the other 2 cyl with the intake in one and the exhaust in the other bended... pretty sad isn't it... if you only jump a couple of tooth on the timming belt (5 to 10) and both the top end AND the bottom end continue turning, then you can almost kiss all of your valves good bye

Very good to know, I'm not sure where I read that it wasn't, and I could have read it wrong, but that tends to make more since because I have contact at certain cam angles. If what the po told me, about the event that killed the motor, was true then id say the valves are for sure shot, and from what you say, if skipped a few teeth and left to run it will kill all the valves, then ya the head would probably be toast. Only problem with that is what the po told me about the events, make no since at all. I really have no reason to beleave what he told me. However, a version of what he said is likely. Anyway I'm not going to try and guess at what could be wrong with it. When I pull the head, ill know. I was really just trying to come up with any other rason why it would lack compression in all 4 cylenders. When I was looking at the car for the first time I remember I was thinking just by looking at the carnage was that when the timing belt was changed at, I think he said 90k they didn't change the tensioner, or it wasn't put back together quite right, and it made the belt slip, once the valves started making contact it could have locked up the crank and julted so hard it snapped the crank pully right off. However, again that's just what I was thinking when I first seen it. Once it came home and I found just how easy it all turned, I kinda had to give that one up. I guess I started thinking it would be one less thing to fix. But I know the truth, its probably shot.

Happened to me too... the timing belt tensionner wasn't replaceby the PO who had just change the timming belt... well I was lucky, the belt jumped 3 tooth, just enough for the engine to shut down going 80 on the highway, but just enough for the valves not to make contact...  open it up, you'll know for sure

Ya that's about all I can do, I don't really feel like trying to guess.

imo I wouldnt try to build the ca18et for power. 3 reasons

the head flows for shit

it doesnt rev (cuz of valve train)

the ecu will NEVER be able to keep up no matter what. the TPS isnt a potentiometer that sends 0-5v, its just a WOT switch. SAFC is useless on it cuz of the TPS

oh and the rods are a lot thinner than the dohc CAs so 4 reasons :p

imo either do MILD upgrades for modest power (below 200whp) or swap to ca18det, mod that and go make 300+ all day

Safc is not totally useless I started getting better readings when I took a crap load of fuel out just took a lil longer then I wanted and then wound up stretching the head bolts and then the ecu took a shit on me lol....

Dohc bottom end on a sohc can get you to 300+ hp, but it won't be as cheap as using the complete dohc engine... if you want to keep it more "original" though, it would be the way to go...

Megasquirt for fuel and spark management and a nice big turbo + a way of reducing air intake temperature (meth injection or I/C) would easily get you in the 200+ range on a nice bottom end (read dohc here ;) ) for more than that, you'll have to dig deep in your pockets and start working on the top end, replacing every single things in there, but no matter how big you oversize the valves or port the head, you'll never approach the kind of flow that the dohc head can give you, in fact, I believe that a stock ca dohc head can outflow almost any worked ca sohc head, almost...

and on top of that the dohc REVs much higher. 2000 rpm higher. that equals a lot of difference in CFM and you need that CFM to make power

deco on 11:50:17 AM / 28-May-11
I am a union electrician

lvDave!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf! havent heard from u in forever!

IggyEGuana on 05:40:23 PM / 31-May-11lvDave!!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf! havent heard from u in forever!

What's up fellow LV S12 brosky,  sounds like a nuts couple of years man!  I like that you like Ford like I do, with a sweet GT and a sick new Fiesta too,  kick-ass.  And seriously,  I hear about more and more S12er's in Las Vegas all the time,  I can't wait until the day that we can unite.

damn youve been busy. good shit tho. congrats on ur daughter and ur house. shit im way older than u and ur already way ahead of me.

I am a sr tech on the low volt side of things, where did you work last befor your layoff. I had a bunch of friends that were all 3rd year in the low volt side and they all got offered to move, but finished befor they could. now they, are sitten on there asses just like me waiting for something thats not going to come, (well not yet). anyway me and the women have been doing ok for 18 months now on my 400 a week, she works also, but you would know that when I do get back to work, money really wont be an issue with my build, bring home for me with out any ot is around the 13-1400 weekly area. so if 400 is getting us by, an extra 1000....... oh ya, now if i can just get a call. number 3 and nothing.....

lvDave on 06:38:39 PM / 31-May-11Then my daughter was born.  I wanted a newer safer car to drive my daughter in, so I bought a new Mustang GT.

In December I got into an accident in my Mustang.

Hey Deco.  I worked in the convention center at City Center then later moved to the podium with Gary Locke as my GF.  Steve Blankey was my foreman in the convention center and I was usually the only person on his crew.  In the podium my foreman was Jay Dubiago, he was a fucking douche bag.

My name is Dave Sibilia if that rings a bell.

Also, sweet s12.  I saw it when it was posted on craigslist.  You're lucky I didn't have a place to park it, otherwise I would've bought it  :laugh:.  As far as motors go, I think you should just throw a ca20e or ca18et long block in there for the time being just to get it going.  You could piece together a nice suspension for it.  Then when work picks up again, you can worry about making some power.  I'd recommend a det at that point though.

I don't know why your name isn't ringing A bell at this time. my name is Ben Easter,  I worked under jay for a long time. I was the tech running the  wireless crew, befor lock was a gf. Then I went to the data crew working under the slot floor, with zogg as the formen.

As for the motor, I would toss a long block in if I had one, tossing 200 bucks out on a used unk condition motor really isn't an option. I don't need this thing running, I have a good daily, I just don't want any dumb short cuts. When I was at city cinter I was finishing up my 4g63t swapped colt, that was a blast but didn't last long due to a bad oil pump. I was really spent with fwd cars and needed a new project. Been looking at the s-12 for a long time now so when this thing came up I jumped on it.

I remember you.  You went to work on zoggs crew the same week I went to work with Jay.  You were working with Mark and Chris, chris switched to the wireman side too.

You could probably get a ca20e longblock off a forum member for $100 or less.

Oh hell I think I remember now, I think you, mark, and I all got into some car talk the day befor I went to the other crew. Well shit man good to hear your worken, and chris also. If you see him tell that fool I said what's up. Anyway if I found a usable ca20 for under 100 bucks id have to piss off the women a 2nd time and buy it also. So with that said I am looking for a long block. Ca20 or 18. Needs to look usable. Not loooking for a great motor here but One that will run and not smoke. I don't have any money right now, but for the right price I can work on something. I do however have a nice set of skills. Need a nice sound system in your home, cable, phone, data, wires running all over your house? Ill fix it up for ya.....