Ca18det Vs Sr20det

Its just can you get a custom gearbox mount and tailshaft end made up as the CA20E box will not go together with the SR engine.

Can you elaborate on this? I could use the SR tranny but it would move my shifter back? And i would need a custom driveshaft?

yeah i would choose the CA...

yeah sr will have more shit coz it's newer but hell if i am running a big t04 big kahuna son that thing would spool untill 5k
dude people have run T88s on SR's

SR is better i agree totally with salps12

when people go to buy s13s here the sr is the one to get not the CA

faster four cylinder drag car in australia is running an SR20DET not a CA18DET
i've never even heard of a car that comes close to being as fast with a CA
besides SR has a bigger aftermarket support in parts.

so jun valve train
ported
balanced cryno crank
h beam rods
jun piston kit
8.3:1cr
machined block
external op with oil cooler
1600cc injectors
apexi safc2
twin walbro 255
t88
25shot to spool the turbine
4.11 rear end lsd with z31 halfshaft and a costum drive shaft
rb25 tranny
some mt dragsters
some fine tuning
well i think this is a right formula to beat any sr.
by the way yes guys with sr spool an t88
how much rpm range do they have to play with?
the sr valvetrain is simply worse than the ca and anyone can say that because the sr has a mot of weight in moving parts. Ca doesn't hence revs much higher
the fastest draggster is sr?
well it's the trend and ppl choose new stuff
how much money has he spent into the sr? so on and so forth
if you throw the money anything WILL be fast.
I just like the ca better due to various reasons.
True .2L is a bit BUT the rest i don't like it

i agree with the sr fans. the sr motor is not a high rev motor and was never designed to be. think if the sr20 as the honda ls motor, lots of torque but no revs. the sr motor is a stout motor. before i put my head gasket i could detinate it all day with 14 psi and i am still running the same bottom end. (sounds like someone crinkling a lays chip bag when it detinates) now i know that the ca is supposed to be a indestrucable motor but enjuku has 544 hp on a stock bottom end sr20det that still runs today .that's 271 hp per liter i'd like to see a ca do that on a stock bottom end.

the only problem with the sr20 i have is the damn gearbox i go through one every 4-6 months. 3rd gear is the weak link on the box. but hey i can swap the tranny now in under 2 hours! i have about 3 of them that i rotate through. i've got a deal worked out now with a guy in the backwoods about 40 minutes from where i live. he charges me $175 plus parts to rebuild the tranny if i have it out of the caseing. last time i blew one up i had a gear almost make it through the housing.

I remember seeing a video on the old S12 forum of a drag car HKS had in Japan. It had a highly modded CA18DET in an S13 and was running 10s in the quarter mile. Thing sounded badass and I belive they set the rev limit in the 9 to 10k range.

i've been away from the forum for a month and half and a ca vs sr debate? HOw great!!

Better than the KA-Turbo vs SR debates on the 240sx forums (::shakes head::)

Ok, i'll clear up some misconceptions. The CA20e trans and the sr trans do both bear the same initial code for construction, FS5, but they are very different. From imput to output shaft the sr trans is longer, i know this because i atemtped to graft, a dogbox grinded ka trans to a ca bellhousing which didnt work at all. The ka trans and the sr trans are similar, just not the ca20e.

But the ca18DET (remember the D) are the same as the latter sr adn KA, but the ca18ET (remember the E) is the same as the ca20e. Make any sense, basically it's the generational revision of the trans.

Ok, Now ca18det vs sr. NOT ca18et vs SR, im sorry guys, there is just no comparison.

Ok the ca18 does rev higher because it is of a solid lifter design. The SR is hydrolic. HKS sells a hydrolic kit for 200-350, an sr revs to 10k? My sr over revs (between shitfts) to 11.3.

You can find lots of CA aftermarket. NEED help PM me. They are not as hard to find as you think.

The CA has a good bottom end but it will soak alot of heat because of the iron block. But the good thing about the CA is it is not suceptable to the oil sump problems of the SR.

Bottom line....You will go faster cheaper with an SR. You will need the sr trans, and a custom driveshaft (100). I would get the ca though for individuality (cant spell!).

Have a great day.

John

Don't get me started on the KAT vs SR wars hehe. But between SR vs CA, I'd take the SR anyday, for the same reason I'd take the KAT over the SR, SIZE! When you factor in everything, price, technology, aftermarket, etc, size wins in the end.

Only way I would go with the CA would be if I was on a budget and did not intend to dump the money to get the car into the mid 13's and below. Because all you need is the engine, ecu, and harness. You can use the stock S12 tranny and save money. CA is the budget swap, SR is the power swap.

if u want to make BIG power...... forget the SR and go to FJ
But remember it WILL need a rebuild straight up to make big power, they are strong but they are old and it's a big heavy lump in the front of your car hehe
If you are looking for straightline speed a 13BREW will probably be the best sized package for the nose of the car, or you could try an RB25DET or a 1JZGTE if they will fit (they probably will just). Someone around here did a VG30DETT to, but all those options will be a bit of a pain to fit and apart from the 13B prolly make your car nose heavy (big overhang in front of the front axle to).

Internals of an SR are proven to withstand 200-220rwkw and like it!
No CA in australia atm is doing that, be lucky to get 180rwkw on stock internals.

While the bottom end of the SR is strong, they have a shitty valvetrain. No two ways about it mate. Rev 'em past 9 grand without Tomei rocker blockers or other such mod, and they WILL break. Simple as that.

Dont get me wrong I love my little CA engine but the fact is, they are NOT the better engine. THEY ARE NOT STRONGER. They ARE NOT as reliable especially when the power rises.

Well...they ARE stronger. No if's, no but's. Cast iron block, under piston oil squirters, and a proper racing valvetrain, ala the FJ20. The only downside is the capacity. Simple as that. IF the CA was a 2 litre like the SR, it would win hands down. But its not, so the choice is ultimately up to what you are after. If you are only aiming at around 180rear-wheel kw, I would go the CA. It will reach this point as easily as the SR and wont blow up. But if you want 200+rwkw, well, its SR time. But they DO require valvetrain mods after the 180rwkw point, or they are just a bomb, waiting to blow as soon as you over-rev. Of course an FJ20 is the best of both, and then some....400rear wheel kw anyone?

Rev 'em past 9 grand without Tomei rocker blockers or other such mod, and they WILL break
Don't rev them past 9k they aren't designed to take it....if you do fit rocker stoppers and solid lifters...revs are somthing you use when you have gotten all the power you can already another way.

Well...they ARE stronger. No if's, no but's. Cast iron block, under piston oil squirters, and a proper racing valvetrain, ala the FJ20

Stronger and more advanced arent the same thing, sure the CA18 has more advanced features and a better valvetrain but that makes it by no means able to take more power, yet it is iron but the SR has some much alu to make up the difference it's a negligible advantage.
There was a 250+kw@rw CA18 in aus for a while, it had a 2L bore stroke etc, it was an ex japan street drag car, it was strong then the block cracked...although 250 is a massive number in anyones books.

Like what was said, why would u revv out an engine that finshes making power at 7K? WTF is the SR running a GT40 Turbo?

The SR has alot more development put into it now with the S15 being brought out, the damn CA is a dinosaur now :-?

180rwkw no a CA, on standard internals. Just doesnt happen. Plus the size of the turbo needed and bolt on bits to get it there would cost a but load compared to what it would take to get the SR there.
SR + S15 T28BB = 200rwkw
CA + GTRS HKS = 185rwkw
GTRS = $4000 AUD
S15 T28bb = $1000AUD

I know what I would pick. Has this been proven... Bet your ass it has! Zoom magazine on a Dyno Dynamics Dyno on Shootout mode :mike:

Plus Ive been told by reliable and people in the know that high power CAs also crack blocks. high being 250rwkw+

s15 sr20det=5000CAD
ca18det hole front clip=1550CAD

looks like i have enough left over to blow the doors to ANY stock sr.

Over here it's $2500au for CA18DET front cut and $3300au for the S13 SR20DET front cut, sure the S15 cut is massively more expensive but the S13 cut + the S15 turbo is the basic setup needed for big power, S15 248cc or 550cc aftermarket injectors and some other stuff will be needed to but for larger outputs the SR20 will still be cheaper than the CA18DET, for bang for your buck below 180-200rwkw the CA wins though

so 3300AUD for the sr, lets say 1000 for the turbo and about 800 for injectors.(and all that with a side mount)
ta ta ta 5100AUD
so the same shit just to be within s15 territory.
ca18det 2500 AUD turbo injectors, and a big fmic, and i still have money to take a girl out on a date and smoke the sr.
oh and i am a full 29KG lighter than the sr, so i can afford to eat a bit more :)

and if i am building an enfine i would rather have it rev sky high because .2L difference in displacement means only about 400rpm better turbo spool up, but i get more turbo range.

someone should rename this thread "Can of worms:SR vs CA"
or perhaps
"the eternal struggle: SR vs CA"

Good info on both sides so far though.

This thread may never die!! :)

This is a CA vs SR thread not how to install thread :-P

Try keep it on track! :asshole: hehe

One thing that gets me is, why did nissan downgrade.
S12's FJ20DET (142kW)
S13's CA18DET(130kW)

If you read my original thread you will see it has alot to do with install and mostly not to do with a competition between the motors. I was looking to see the benefits of each and the different complications involved with each during a swap.

Here you go SALPS so you can start from page 1 ;)
http://www.club-s12.org/board/showthread.php?t=6178&page=1&pp=15 :bomb:

Thanks for the help Nebuchernezzer, so basically it is bolt in besides the driveshaft?

One thing that gets me is, why did nissan downgrade.
S12's FJ20DET (142kW)
S13's CA18DET(130kW)
It's probably to do with response, NVH (noise vibration and harshness), fuel economy etc. I have never driven an FJ20 but in stock form they probably don't feel anywhere near as good to drive as a CA18DET (low compression, slower turbo spool etc).

Yeah as far as bolting in a SR the only custom bits are gearbox x-member (you MAY be able to slot it and make it fit if you slot the engine mounts to), custom tailshaft, cut a bigger hole in the floor for the shifter (have to move the centre console to but thats a piece of cake scene as it's held in with self tappers). What i did was put the SR gearstick in the box backwards so it doesn't slope backwards and hit the handbrake, it's still quite reachable even sloping forwards. Clutch lines need to be bent a little bit but nothing you can't do with your bare hands. The clutch master needs to be swapped (right hand drive cars) if you don't slot the engine mounts to. Fuel lines etc run in the same place in S12 and S13 so just join up the lines, same with the throttle it bolts up to. Heater is a bit of a pain cos the S12 and S13 heaters go through the firewall on opposite sides of the car, i just ran new rubber hose behind the motor to join it up. I used the S13 radiator cos the outlets are on opposite sides to the S12 rad, not too hard to do. Inlet, IC etc just see what you want to put where.

heh sorry craig wasnt having a go at you, just looking for a reason to use that asshole smilie :-P I luv it :finger: and that :laugh:

I no :asshole:

Haha JJ. I could read the sarcasm. The only probelm was i didnt have my smilies enabled so i couldnt get you back for a while.

It's probably to do with response, NVH (noise vibration and harshness), fuel economy etc. I have never driven an FJ20 but in stock form they probably don't feel anywhere near as good to drive as a CA18DET (low compression, slower turbo spool etc).

There is a reason for the difference in feel. Well, two reasons really.

1) The FJ20 DR30 'Rines and S12 Silvias were homoglation specials. Plain and simple, the factory made them to fulfill homoglation rules, not to create a quick and comfortable sports coupe for Joe Bloggs (or the avergae joe for yanks, or whatever your local translation is). So they were fitted with huge turbos and such to homoglate said turbos.

SO

2) When the FJ20 no longer needed to be homoglated, Nissan did the smart thing and put in an engine which, while having a lower peak power figure, was far more suited to road use, so they could actually sell some to the 30-40 year old non-enthusiast bracket, who would have been scared shitless by the on/off power delivery and extreme noise of the FJ20 S12's (The DR30 had been superceded by this point.)

Sure, the FJ is a superior engine for tuning purposes but, really, who takes a BRAND NEW car and tunes it, straight off the bat? Answer is, for 20 points, not enough people to put a major dent in overall sales. Therefore it makes perfect sense why Nissan chose the route they did.

It takes cubic money to tune a brand new car. For example who takes a new Audi A6 Bi-turbo and has enough cash to rip it apart and tune it straight away? Only a tiny percentage of the people who actually buy an A6 Bi-turbo.

I agree except on the matter of So they were fitted with huge turbos they weren't they were fitted with old T3s, they are physically smaller than a T28 from a S14 or S15. The AR is a normal 0.6 on skylines and a 0.45 on S12s, the reason for their lack of response is 1980s turbo technology. The wastegate flows directly into a flat wall, the housing and blade design isn't very advanced etc. I'm not even sure the FJ was on/off as a factory engine, i was always under the impression it was just plain doughy down low and a bit laggy, not so much scary as uninspiring. Great drag engine though, there is many a FJ powered drag car down here, and everyone has seen Bens drag silvia in NZ by now.

I will have some pics up tonight!!! :headbang: :cheers: :lol:

Allright as the days grow longer and i am still waiting for my CA18DET to arrive. Its been a month and still waiting, hopefully this week!!

Well i am having second thoughts, should i go SR instead? The problem seems to be that there is little after market support for the CA which isnt a big deal, then comes the fact that the engines are older and may require a rebuild very soon(which is kinda a hassle due to tha availability of parts), the turbo is older. So its more a colaboration of small things that are making me doubt my choice.

Is it that more of a complicated swap to move up to a SR? Or is it basically the same.

1) What would i have to to transmission wise, will the CA20E tranny work? Will i need a custom drive shaft, and use the SR tranny?????

2) I would get a uncut wiring harness but how difficult would the wiring be, any significant difference from the CA wiring interms of difficulty?

3) I am sure i would need an electric fan, would i need a bigger rad to accomadate the engine?

What else am i missing that will be a major hurdle?

I can get a SR for around $2100 CAD(i think) so about 500 more than my CA.

Any feedback will help!

Thanks in advance
Craig

basically the SR has alot more parts than the CA. But not turbo wise ;-)

The SR is alot stronger internally and also alot faster stock. Mod for mod the SR will be cheaper and faster.

Its just can you get a custom gearbox mount and tailshaft end made up as the CA20E box will not go together with the SR engine.

The way I saw it was... 200+rwkw is better to go with the SR as that can be done on stock internals. 160rwkw and under is cheaper to go with CA as the engine bolts onto everything like stock!

But really... if neb has an sr then the SR MUST BE  :lame:  :lick:

Its just can you get a custom gearbox mount and tailshaft end made up as the CA20E box will not go together with the SR engine.

the sr tranny and ca tranny are the same length just diff bellhousings.
they are the same god damn tranny

now lets see

sr vs ca

sr is more expensive-ca is cheaper hence use money to ugrade
sr you will need a bigger turbo oneday-ca same with ca
sr has rocker arms hence 4 lobe cams- ca has true 8 lobe cams

ca revs higher better more freely than any sr any day.
TELL ME AN SR THAT REVS @10500rpm?

internals are somewhat the same both forged pistons with oil squirters. both engines will make tons of power with the right tuning on stock internals.  Guys are reving their ca to 9k on stock bottom end.
ca is belt driven which makes for lesser noise and better revving  over the sr.
YES THERE IS AFTERMARKET SUPPORT FOR CA
jun makes stuff for us, cp racing, arias, hks, greddy
the sr you getting is propably old too for 2100.
so depending the condition you will need to rebuild that too
ca has more thoughts of engineering after it, 2 way intake mani
and never heard of ca chambers detonating, wether sr does have that problem
sr cas 0.2L more but in my opinion the thought money and engineering that\'s behind the ca isn\'t in the sr
did i mentioned that ca is lighter by some 25kg\'s over the sr?
so for the money you saving on the ca you can reach sr output and surpass them by quite a bit
and sr is freaking overrated
every 240 and their cousin have one now
i just wanna shillack them on my light ca.

ok they are the same tranny,

DIFFERENT LENGTH!

Why would two S12 ppl have to do the same thing? Heck what do they know?
Neb!

SR is better. PERIOD! Why would you ever rev the car out to 10+thousand neway? The power stops at like 7.5k!

Internals of an SR are proven to withstand 200-220rwkw and like it!
No CA in australia atm is doing that, be lucky to get 180rwkw on stock internals.
The SR has more torque which means more power lower!
MORE SR aftermarket support! Can you get off the shelf CA equal length exhaust manifolds, bigger oil sumps, bigger bolt on intake manifolds, etc.

You put the same mods on a SR and on the CA and the SR will be guaranteed to be 30rwkw more!
Bolt on turbos make more power on the SR, HKS GT-RS only makes something like 180-190rwkw when tuned nice but on an SR it makes 220rwkw. Proven, ahuh sure is!

the small things that make the CA ebtter than the SR are OVERRATED!

Dont get me wrong I love my little CA engine but the fact is, they are NOT the better engine. THEY ARE NOT STRONGER. They ARE NOT as reliable especially when the power rises.

In the end its all about what power you want to make for the cheapest amount of money. Like i said 180+rwkw on stock internals, THE SR IS THE WAY TO GO or even the FJ  :twisted:

well
i tend to disagree
go check the detonation on the sr\'s
ca does have aftermarket backing up you just gotta search
yeah sr will have more shit coz it\'s newer but hell if i am running a big t04 big kahuna son that thing would spool untill 5k
and still have 5 k into the spool up
so when the engine is done in the end it goes to money and what you need to do.  
I prefer ca!!!!!!!!

Being new to the forum, I realize this may be a bad place to start..but oh well.
The SR is (IMO) among the top three engines to be built out of Japan.  Along with the RB series motors and the 2jz, the sr20 is a powerhouse of a motor.  The CA is a light engine with plenty of potential.  But to get in to 300rwhp area, its just easier with an SR.  End of story, there\'s no question.  Bolt ons and cams have gotton me to 277rwhp.  Umm..I guess thats all.  :shrug:

both have their goods and bads, if you have the $$ and you\'ll need it the sr is the way to go if you have less cash and want descent power 250-300hp the ca is the better choice also the ca will drop right in and you can use the stock tranny the sr is alot more work, so unless you can do all the fabbing yourself i would go sr but 95% of us cant so the ca will be way cheaper and easier to install yourself

I did a SR into my car but if i did it all again i\'d go a CA18DET more than likely, far less work less cash so you can do more mods to the CA hehe.  Might not be quite as fast in the end but the effort/$$$/speed ratio is much better hehe.

if u want an easy install kinda cheap and be on the road quick go the ca...

if u want to make BIG power...... forget the SR and go to FJ

if u want to make BIG power...... forget the SR and go to FJ

well i think everyone should rebuild there motor if u are going to be giving it

Internals of an SR are proven to withstand 200-220rwkw and like it!
No CA in australia atm is doing that, be lucky to get 180rwkw on stock internals.

Dont get me wrong I love my little CA engine but the fact is, they are NOT the better engine. THEY ARE NOT STRONGER. They ARE NOT as reliable especially when the power rises.

Touche Bart, common sense answer! I have an sr in my s12 and like it , but I like the CA for the s12 (roadcar) because, CA18det\'s were put into s12\'s in Japan in their first production run, therefore the engine is easier to fit into an s12. (sr takes up more space and sits higher). Here in Australia you can get plenty of aftermarket stuff for a CA, granted as salps said not as much as an sr. You can get a gasket set down at your local auto accessories retailer, as its the same as the s13 Nissan EXA , that used a fwd ca18de that was sold here new in Australia in the late 80\'s and early 90\'s.
If I was to do another swap into an s12 to drive around town everyday it would be a ca18det, because its easier and cheaper., and they are lots of fun. For grunt , and say drags etc. its the sr.

Rev \'em past 9 grand without Tomei rocker blockers or other such mod, and they WILL break

Well...they ARE stronger. No if\'s, no but\'s. Cast iron block, under piston oil squirters, and a proper racing valvetrain, ala the FJ20

Stronger and more advanced arent the same thing, sure the CA18 has more advanced features and a better valvetrain but that makes it by no means able to take more power, yet it is iron but the SR has some much alu to make up the difference it\'s a negligible advantage.
There was a 250+kw@rw CA18 in aus for a while, it had a 2L bore stroke etc, it was an ex japan street drag car, it was strong then the block cracked...although 250 is a massive number in anyones books.

It\'s easy to make the CA a 2 liter, Tomei makes a kit with pistons, rods, and a crank that converts it to a CA20DET:devil: . That\'s what I\'m doing. It does cost a decent amount of money though.

Like what was said, why would u revv out an engine that finshes making power at 7K? WTF is the SR running a GT40 Turbo?

The SR has alot more development put into it now with the S15 being brought out, the damn CA is a dinosaur now  :-?

180rwkw no a CA, on standard internals. Just doesnt happen. Plus the size of the turbo needed and bolt on bits to get it there would cost a but load compared to what it would take to get the SR there.
SR + S15 T28BB = 200rwkw
CA + GTRS HKS  = 185rwkw
GTRS = $4000 AUD
S15 T28bb = $1000AUD

I know what I would pick. Has this been proven... Bet your ass it has!  Zoom magazine on a Dyno Dynamics Dyno on Shootout mode  :mike:

Plus Ive been told by reliable and people in the know that high power CAs also crack blocks. high being 250rwkw+

Hey ironcross.   \"Who needs the D in CA20DET ?  :lick: \"  Just playing.  Are you really gonna do the CA20DET. Cause if you are, ill get some #\'s and you will get some #\'s and we will see how close the power bands are and what the D really does :)

Like what was said, why would u revv out an engine that finshes making power at 7K? WTF is the SR running a GT40 Turbo?

The SR has alot more development put into it now with the S15 being brought out, the damn CA is a dinosaur now  :-?  

180rwkw no a CA, on standard internals. Just doesnt happen. Plus the size of the turbo needed and bolt on bits to get it there would cost a but load compared to what it would take to get the SR there.
SR + S15 T28BB = 200rwkw
CA + GTRS HKS  = 185rwkw
GTRS = $4000 AUD
S15 T28bb = $1000AUD

I know what I would pick. Has this been proven... Bet your ass it has!  Zoom magazine on a Dyno Dynamics Dyno on Shootout mode  :mike:  

Plus Ive been told by reliable and people in the know that high power CAs also crack blocks. high being 250rwkw+

Over here it\'s $2500au for CA18DET front cut and $3300au for the S13 SR20DET front cut, sure the S15 cut is massively more expensive but the S13 cut + the S15 turbo is the basic setup needed for big power, S15 248cc or 550cc aftermarket injectors and some other stuff will be needed to but for larger outputs the SR20 will still be cheaper than the CA18DET, for bang for your buck below 180-200rwkw the CA wins though

I can see the SR has more potential, but for every day drivability i think im gonna go with the CA. I cant see me modding a CA to its full potential, so i cant ever see me modding a SR to its full potential.

Also this car is going to be a every day driver, not that a SR cant be but im not trying to build something that will run 10\'s in the quarter mile. Just something faster and with some upgradeable potential.

Craig

I agree if you want an engine to give you the power in the range that the CA offers then it\'s the best bet, cheaper and easier than an SR Smiley

Over here it\'s $2500au for CA18DET front cut and $3300au for the S13 SR20DET front cut, sure the S15 cut is massively more expensive but the S13 cut + the S15 turbo is the basic setup needed for big power, S15 248cc or 550cc aftermarket injectors and some other stuff will be needed to but for larger outputs the SR20 will still be cheaper than the CA18DET, for bang for your buck below 180-200rwkw the CA wins though

I wouldn\'t pay those prices for those bits, they are easy to come accross for $1000 and $800 but it\'s possible to pick up the turbo for $800 and S15 injectors for $300 or so, the 550cc injectors are an upgrade even on the S15.  But in the end it\'s all a matter of economics, go with whatever will get you the biggest bang for the smallest buck Smiley

NEWS:

D1Datto - 1600, CA18, 450hp Garret, 223 rwkw, 12.0 @ 113 mph

By an Aussie aka Dr Drift on ns.com forums.
Yeh the times are fast due to the 1600 datto but the CA18DET is running on stock internals.. 223rwkw!!
Im going to speak to him later on today or tomorrow about how hes gone about this but in his opinion its all in the tuning. There may be hope yet for the old CA and holding 200rwkw from stock internals!

Heck i\'d be happy with 160rwkw but 200rwkw looks and sounds nice  :pimp:

someone should rename this thread \"Can of worms:SR vs CA\"
or perhaps
\"the eternal struggle: SR vs CA\"

someone should rename this thread \\\"Can of worms:SR vs CA\\\"
or perhaps
\\\"the eternal struggle: SR vs CA\\\"

we should add a poll to this thread

What has to be done in terms of engine mounts to use a SR??

May be forced to go SR due to the availability of a CA.......Sad