front suspension problems

Ok so i'm starting to get fed up with the front suspension on my 1985 200sx Turbo. I have a problem with it wanting to pull when going over ruts and uneven ground in the road. Worse than that at over about 75 mph the steering wheel wants to shake back and forth and the car doesn't feel stable like it should. I've replaced the steering rack, the rack bushings, the lower control arms (factory that come with new ball joints), the shocks, the springs (tokicos), the strut rod (tension rod) bushings, the sway bar bushings, pretty much every front end part I can think of. If i jack the car up and try to move the wheels i can move the wheel left and right (forward and backward in relation to the car) a slight bit. Not sure if this is normal or not since the suspension is unloaded. I'm about to give up on this car. I had the same suspension setup on my old 1987 200sx non turbo and it worked just fine. I'm thinking about trying new strut mount insulators but I don't know if that will do anything or not. Anybody have any ideas? I love this car but the front suspension problems are driving me insane. What now?

Have you had your tires balanced lately? A tire that's gone out of balance or an out-of-round wheel can cause the shaking you describe at speed.
Since you mentioned that you've changed your struts, you may want to ensure that the big nut retaining the strut cartridge is tight. If it is loose, your strut may be able to move around within the strut housing. I had this happen to me on my 280Z a couple years ago.
Since you say the wheel has fore/aft play in it, I would suspect a loose bolt/nut somewhere. If it's not the strut nut, check the T/C rod and the top strut mount (the one in the strut isolator). Sometimes bolts may feel tight but because you're tightening around a rubber bushing, you need to keep tightening farther. Also, some suspension nuts/bolts are designed to be tightened with the car on its wheels on the ground, so everything is under stress as you tighten.

Definetly not out of balance wheels. They are properly balanced and it feels more like looseness in the suspension than the wheels out of balance. Just doesn't feel as tight as it should. I'll look into those things you mentioned. If anyone else has any advice or what to look for please please share it. Could the strut mount insulators have any effect on this?

Definetly not out of balance wheels. They are properly balanced and it feels more like looseness in the suspension than the wheels out of balance. Just doesn't feel as tight as it should. I'll look into those things you mentioned. If anyone else has any advice or what to look for please please share it. Could the strut mount insulators have any effect on this?

I dont think it is the suspension i think its your tires being wide, better suspension would help alot im sure.

Tires being wide? I'm running the stock tire and wheel size. I've run it with the stock alloys as well as my Enkei wheels which are 6.5in wide versus the stock 6 inch wide. Doesn't seem to make any difference.

Have you checked your wheel bearings lately? How about your alignment? Everything else seems like it should be pretty solid since you've replaced it all.

Just had it aligned recently and as far as the wheel bearings go last time i messed with them they looked fine and i put plenty of grease on them and i tightened them to the proper torque spec. The tie rods ends are new as well. I'm baffled as to what it could be.

Has the car ever been in an accident? Could there be possible frame damage from a previous owner? Sounds like you've covered all your bases.

No accidents and the frame seems to be straight. I thought i covered all the bases also but it still has problems. Something has to be wrong here. Only thing I haven't replaced is the strut mount insulators. The only other thing I think it could be is the actual strut housing/spindle assembly. I had an 87 200sx with CA20E that I took the tokico springs from. My dad and I took the strut housing from the 87 and used it on the 85 turbo. They looked to be the same externally and the 87 ones were in better shape plus we didn't have to remove the springs and struts (the springs are tokico and the struts KYB GR-2 only like a year and half old). If for some reason the strut housing are different it might be it. Can anyone with the FAST program check and see if the 85 200sx Turbo strut housing/spindle has the same part number as the 87 200sx strut housing/spindle with CA20E? This is the only other thing i can think of besides the strut mount insulators.

I kinda had a problem like this. Whenever I went over slightly bumpy road, the front end would shake and make a loud banging sound. Turns out the sway bar mount (the one to the chassis) had come out of place and whenever I hit something, it would flop around and make a horrid noise. I dont know if this is your problem, because your actual wheel moves front and back, which this obviously wouldnt help, which also reminds me that I also had my tie rod fall off a few months ago, scared the s#!% out of me. I think I was getting a little play in that too. Hope this can help. By the way, when you move the wheel, can you see where it is flexing?

Yes it looks like the actual strut casing assembly is moving or turning slightly. It only goes a little bit each direction but on the 200sx there really isn't anything to keep it from spinning that i can see other than the steering rack. Any ideas? I was thinking this is probably due to the suspension being unloaded while i tried to move it. It only moves fore/aft and not at all any other direction.

correct me if i am wrong ,but isn't this problem call ed bump steer?? you tie rods arent reversed or the the steering knuckes arent reversed are they. i dont even know if it possible to reverse thewe items, but some thing is wrong , are you sure your sterring rack is mounted tight and not able to move??

no the tie rods aren't reversed i made sure of that. Steering rack looks to be secure and it feels good in corners but just doesn't feel right in a straight line especially at higher speed. I'll have to mess around with everything some more and see if i can figure it out. So far though this has been the most frustrating problem i've ever had on a car. I've been trying to fix this problem for about a year now. The car is still exhibiting the same problems it had with the old steering rack but to a lesser degree. It used to be worse than it is now but it's still not right.

Bump steer is when the suspension goes through its travel and the toe changes because the lower control arm and the tie rod arnt on the same plane, along with different lengths, and so on. No matter what, the suspension shouldnt move in this direction, even if its unloaded. So does it rotate, or move back and forth, because if its rotational it might be the tie rods, back and forth, then I'm thinking control arm bushings, although it could be like 10 other things as well, sorry bro.

one or all three things

bad steering rack- this will cause a similar feel

bad and worn tie rods- mine got so bad i had a 1/4in play moving the wheel side to side

and bad tension rod bushings- if yours are worn out the whole wheel will move forward and backwards due to the play...

Well all those parts are new. It may be possible that the shop didn't bleed the steering rack properly. Could that cause it feel like that or maybe another problem in the hydraulic system for the power steering?

hmm if all three areas are new then it could be wheel bearings, or lower ball joint in the control arm

lower control arms are maybe 1 year old from Nissan. These have new ball joints in them. Couldn't really see them going south so soon. I'm leaning towards the strut mount insulators or a problem with the strut housing gland nut and or other parts. I'll look into it further and see if i can't find out more.

hmm then shit man you have a mystery on your hands..sorry to say that

Can anyone who has the Nissan FAST program or has access to it look up some part numbers for me. I need to know if 1987 200sx (CA20) strut housings (the housing/spindle part) are the same part number as 1985 200sx (Turbo) strut housings/spindles. If they are in any way different it could be part of the problem.

Anyone?

First off, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for

Going on my best guess, you mean the bottom portion of the Macpherson?

With that in mind, for some reason my fiche doesn't have the listing for turbo cars under front suspension, so I'm guessing the ca20e and ca18et's use the same part

but!

the 84-86.5 use a different strut than the 86-88 cars

If this is the wrong part, let me know and I'll just take a screen shot of the front suspension and you can point it out by number.

Sorry about that. I mean the strut casing that holds the strut insert and the lower spring seat. It's basically the largest part of the front suspension parts it's the tube that holds the strut and has the lower spring seat welded on it. From what I could tell when we compared them they looked to be the same. I just wanted to be sure in case that might be the cause of my problems.

Ok, I went ahead and did it anyway

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/mr200/200sx/S12master.jpg

Well one thing that i've always thought was weird was when I put the KYB strut inserts in the housings we could never get the gland nuts to thread in all the way. It seems like the struts are too long or something. Maybe they sent me the wrong struts or something but it seemed that way. Although I had the same ones on my 87 CA20E and didn't have any troubles. Could this be the problem? Also do the little flat cuts on the end of the strut where the top nut goes on (that holds the strut onto the top spring seat) need to be pointed or indexed a certain direction? What about the strut mount insulators do they need to face a certain way? My FSM doesn't seem to go into specifics such as these.

they appear to be the same.

Front Strut kit RH 54302-04F26-
Front Strut kit LH 54303-04F26-

there are three variations of the CA20E kits

10/83 to 5/84 54302-01F25- right side
54303-01F25- left side

the ones I gave you above are from 11/84 and on.

05/84 to 11/84 54302-06F25- right side
54303-06F25- left side

Thanks for that info guys. Anyone care to take a shot at the questions I posted above?

Ok.... I'm going to post my questions again. Someone please answer these if you know anything about it. Do the little flat cuts on the end of the strut where the top nut goes on (that holds the strut onto the top spring seat) need to be pointed or indexed a certain direction? What about the strut mount insulators do they need to face a certain way? My FSM doesn't seem to go into specifics such as these.

You probably don't want to here this but are you sure its not your tires? The only reason I ask is becuz a while back I had a tire problem and had to through on one of my spares. I had a bald 215/60R15on one side and a new 205/60R15 on the other. My car drove fine before I had to do this but once I did I had the same darting problem you have. It also would shake under braking but not just driving. New tires it drives fine but in this case it was the bald 215 being out of balance. *shrugs* about the slot on the strut thread. The flat parts or the strut tread and strut mount should meet up but it does sometimes turn inside the mount. Only thing you have to be careful of w/ that is nut backing off or if it strips the threads on the strut itself?

Update on the situation. I've torqued the tension rods to the proper specs with the car on the ground and that seems to have helped a little bit. One thing I noticed in the FSM is that it says in bold print that the transverse links (or lower control arms) the bolt that holds them to the subframe also needs to be torqued with the car on the ground. When i put the new control arms on I torqued them off the ground. This may be where my problem is but just by looking at it doesn't seem to look like it would matter since the bolt just acts like a hinge for up and down movement. However I will give this a try sometime soon. I also took everything else apart and inspected everything and couldn't find anything else wrong. The shocks are good the springs are fine the strut mount insulators are fine the tires are like new the wheels are balanced properly. If tightening those bolts with the car on the ground doesn't help i'm not sure what it is. Maybe the springs are on the wrong sides? I'm kinda doubting it since they were mounted on my 87 200sx and it never had these problems.

Great news i've finally fixed it! It was because when i installed the lower control arms i didn't leave the bolts loose that connect the lower control arm to the subframe and tighten the bolt with the car on the ground. The lower control arm bolts must be torqued with the car on the ground, same for the tension rods, and sway bar end links. This is critical and really changed the steering feel and it's nice and soild now.

Great to hear that you finally solved this issue. You must be a happy man! That is quite an obscure thing to find.

That is awesome news man. Glad you got it fixed.

Also, if you cant screw the shock nut all the way just throw a couple washers in there cuz that needs to be tightened.

Well still have a little play notably when on the highway at higher speeds. Feels a lot like worn out ball joints really. Thing is the lower control arms are about 1.5 years old (which include ball joints from Nissan) so if they are shot already i'll be damned. It's not the steering rack, the outer tie rods are new TRW units, not sure where to go from here. Guess i need to see what those ball joints are like now. Any ideas? My dad and i were messing with it trying to figure out where the play is and when the car is jacked up you can wiggle the wheel left and right slightly (forward and backward when facing the wheel). This goes for both sides and i'm not sure if that play is there because the suspension is unloaded at that time or if it is a sign of something worn out. Could somone do me a favor and jack up the front of their S12 and see if they can get that kind of play is that normal or not?

Anybody?

The only thing you didn't mention was the inner tierods. Those would make it sloppy.

Yeah but the steering rack is rebuilt and included new inner tie rods. Can someone jack up the front of their S12 and check for play left to right like i mentioned above? I want to know if this is normal under no suspension load or not. Thanks I'd really appreciate it.

How mutch play do you have? I have some play but thats becouse of the passenger side rack bushing.

Well that's the funny part. I don't really have any steering play that i can notice but depending upon the road surface the steering feel will get looser or tighter and over rough roads the steering wheel wants to move and if you aren't expecting it it can be weird. Sometimes under hard breaking if the road isn't perfect it wants to turn to the left or right and you have to fight it by turning the wheel a little in the opposite direction. Also sometimes on the highway at higher speeds the steering wheel shimmies back and forth and it just doesn't feel very safe or stable.

That sucks. Mine did this when my tention rod bushings where bad and the bracket was bent towards the door. But your's is new. Have one of your friends look at your front wheels as you heel-toe the break and gas with first and reverse. Feather the clutch but don't kill it. Apply good break pressure. Just like doing a power break but without spining the tires. I put new bushings on but it still had slop. So I cut one old bushing in half and used the smaller half. I put it on the front. Yes I know you torqued them to spec. but for some reason it dosen't put enough pressure on the bushings. over tightening won't help any becouse its only stressing the threads, spacer cylender, and the rod.
If it slops try doing this or shorten the spacer about 1/8 - 3/16. Use extra washers on the nut side to compensate.

...could it be the tireS? ive seen/heard of a condition called tramlining...where the tires catch the first incorrect piece of paved road, and glue to it...or something like it...

Thanks for all your help iliRandyili I'll try messing some more with the tension rod bushings and let you guys know what comes of that. Sounds like that might be it because one time i decided to tighten them down more and it seemed to help for a little while but eventually it just got to be the same way. Thanks for the tips i'll see what i can do with it.

Ok so i shortened both spacers by 3/16 and added two more washers up front under the nut. So far it feels really tight. I'll have to drive it some more for a few days to make sure everything is gonna stay nice and tight like it is now. If I have any more trouble i'll throw another washer up front and try again. So far this has really improved the steering feel and breaking. Also a note for anyone else using the MSA Z31 poly tension rod bushings you need to shorten your spacer about 3/16 of an inch and add some washers up front otherwise you'll have the same problems i had, as the stock spacer and the spacer that comes with them are both too long and this doesn't allow the bushings to be compressed enough to do much of anything.

Im glad everythings working out.:) So how did the test go? How mutch slop did you have?

As far as the test I didn't test it like you said too. I could tell however that there was some play in the control arms and noticed that the tension rod bushings were not very snug even though the nuts were tightened all the way. After modding the spacer and adding some washers the car feels like it should. No more pulling left or right on rough roads and no more shaking steering wheel on the highway. Thanks again Randy I probably would have never thought about the problem being with the spacers for the tension rods. I owe you one :bow: Problem solved guys nothing to see here :guitar: