We installed a C-15 Cat engine in a truck at work here that uses twin sequential turbo's and it got me thinking, why can't I do the same? I'me buying another ca18et to rebuild over the winter and it still has the turbo so I will have two T-2's when I'me done. Cat uses this setup to reduce stress on the turbo's by creating the same pressure but having the turbo's spin slower, and it also reduces lag! I guess I'me looking for tips and tricks Because I'me going to try it as soon as I get the other engine (month and a half) so any help would be great.
ca18ett?
This thread was saved without dates. "Around Mar 2005" is estimated from neighbouring threads.
good luck fitting twins in the s12 engine bay nissan kicked our ass with just a single
you could build a custom manifold with 1 top mount running off of 1 and 4 and a bottom mount running off 2 and 3. A larger single is a better option though.
Bart was talking about doing a TT setup on his a couple of years ago......I guess he changed his mind....or atleast put it on the back burner for a while.
What would be the point? If you're talking better spoolup, think about how small of a turbo you would have to use to get 2 cylinders to spool it well. Better spoolup, sure, but power would be at a minimum.
Bart was talking about doing a TT setup on his a couple of years ago......I guess he changed his mind....or atleast put it on the back burner for a while.
once i max the limits of the t28 i will use a twin t25 setup
What would be the point? If you're talking better spoolup, think about how small of a turbo you would have to use to get 2 cylinders to spool it well. Better spoolup, sure, but power would be at a minimum.
true but if you use 2 t25's with head work and nice tubular headers you will spool faster then a t3 and have much more avaiable flow over the t3....
But sequential turbos are a little different. It's used a lot in tractors, and it's usually one smaller one feeding a bigger turbo, not two in parrallel like most street car twin setups.
Also, you need some kind of crossover if you're gonna run parrallel twin turbos, can't just have two cylinders feeding one, and two feeding the other unless you have a crossover to equalize the pressure between the turbos.
Would it be possible to run two turbo's and have the exhaust run through one and then into the other one? I can't think if this would work or not. I mean weld a flange onto the downpipe of the first turbo so the second could be mounted in series right after the first one. I dunno, somebody let me know.
Yeah, I thought that's what you were talking about. That's how the tractor pullers do it. They'll run 3 or 4 in series and make about 90 lbs of boost... :mrgreen:
But I've never seen a street car run a setup like this that I can remember. Except for those twincharged super/turbo cars that you see every once in a while, but that's kinda different...
Third gen RX-7s and fourth gen Supras both run sequential setups from the factory, but most people dump them in favour of a single turbo setup when they want to make power. A single turbo is simpler and generally can flow more air than two turbos. For example, with Bart's idea of two t25s sequentially, he will have boost farther down in the rpm range (by about 3K rpm), but he won't flow the same amount of air as a single t3/t4 turbo (which could be spooled by 4k rpm). Great for around town, bad for the drag strip. Twin turbos are for response, not power (unless one turbo won't flow enough air, or in a V engine, then they use twin turbos to make the exhaust easier).
roller bearing hybrid t25 is best i recon.
Third gen RX-7s and fourth gen Supras both run sequential setups from the factory, but most people dump them in favour of a single turbo setup when they want to make power. A single turbo is simpler and generally can flow more air than two turbos. For example, with Bart's idea of two t25s sequentially, he will have boost farther down in the rpm range (by about 3K rpm), but he won't flow the same amount of air as a single t3/t4 turbo (which could be spooled by 4k rpm). Great for around town, bad for the drag strip. Twin turbos are for response, not power (unless one turbo won't flow enough air, or in a V engine, then they use twin turbos to make the exhaust easier).
2 t25 can easily flow over 500cfms so that about 500hp.. most t3/t4 are good for about 500-700hp and most smaller t3's are good to maybe 350-400hp so you can see that the twins would make plenty of power for the street and strip, but like i said it all depends on the work that done to motor and head to handle such power
2 t25 can easily flow over 500cfms so that about 500hp.. most t3/t4 are good for about 500-700hp and most smaller t3's are good to maybe 350-400hp so you can see that the twins would make plenty of power for the street and strip, but like i said it all depends on the work that done to motor and head to handle such power
You're getting your "rules of thumb" confused. It's every 1 lb/min = 10 HP, not 1 cfm = 1 hp. This webpage will tell you how to convert your cfms to lb/min, http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0312_turbo/index1.html. 500 CFMs is good for about 350 hp at the flywheel. On another note, the 60 trim t3 wheel flows 490 cfm (http://www.stealth316.com/images/t3-60trim-cfm.gif). Also for those that are fans of the Mitsu 14b, it flows about 430 cfm. The cfm maps were put into cfm scale by the web master of that webpage, but the real compressor maps are on the page too, so you can compare. I searched for about an hour looking for a t25 compressor map but I can't seem to find one, so there is no way to really compare the turbos. Max CFM number isn't nearly as useful as a compressor map.
The main reason I though of this is 'cause I'me a cheap bastid and after I buy that engine I'll have another t2 sitting around and well, waste not, want not. What would I stand to gain from running the two t2's in series with exhaust flowing through one then to the other. Caterpillar uses it to get longer life out of there turbo's (you should see the size of those things, holy shit they weigh fifty pounds) while running the same boost levels (45-75psi, yowza). Oh yeah would anybody be interested in a REALLY big turbo, like one where the compressor side is as big as a dinner plate? We have one at work just sitting there collecting dust. I realise a 1.8 would never push enough exhuast to even turn that mother but if somebody knos somebody who wants one let me know.
Oh, fawk, *I* was the one who came up with the idea, and it was Bart and I who spent more than ten pages of thread on the matter, get off your arses and do a search onthe old forum :rofl:
I suppose I now have the hardware needed to try this at some point <whistles innocently>
Arro the old forum is down...
Ah ha so it is, has Dan said anything about that?
Okay so maybe I unknowingly stole credit for your idea but you can't prove anything, bwahahaha, okay maybe you can but thats not the point. What was my point again? Oh well never mind (damn alchohol). So you folks think I would have snappier response and less lag with twins turbo's in series? What do you think the max psi I could run with such a setup would be? Even if I could run like 18-20psi safely I would be happy (with an afc and all that other stuff mentioned) because that would push some good power with good throttle response. Also I have never been on a drag strip and have no desire to so this setup would be for road driving only. Let me know what you think, thanks.
ok ok ok , I'll just break down the basic summary for what was discussed on the old forum.Twin T2's will flow like a small T4, this handed down to me from a couple guys at Turbonetics that did this with a 1.8L Integra and popped the headgasket. They spool up quick, but two force alot of air.
On a new T2, T3, or most any turbocharger with an internal wastegate, the external actuator arm has a 7psi spring in the vacuum canister. This means that once you boost up to 7psi, the boost signal in the line begins to defeat the spring that holds the actuator arm tight (which holds the wastegate shut tight), and the wastegate begins to lift and open.
With two T2 turbos, they will make that same 7psi in the manifold as a pair, but each will only be putting out about 3-4psi each to do so. This means it takes 5-6 psi each turbo to make 10psi in the manifold, and 7-8 psi in each turbo to make 15psi, 10 psi a piece to make 18-20, and so on. So you stay within the efficiency map of each turbocharger. Of course this explanation only works if both turbos are identical specs and boosting parallel (and not sequential.
However, I had an idea just now for a sequential setup using a T2 or T25 paired with a T3/T4. You can set the MBC on the T2 to 10psi, and then on the bigger turbo set it to whatever else (15, 20, 25...), by the time the T2 is running out of breath, the bigger one is now spooled and climbing. Hmm...
Just as in the case of the parallel setup, you would need a Y-split with the single path at the airflow meter end, and the split paths leading to the inlets at the turbos. Then another reversed Y, with the splits leading from the turbo's blow outlet and the single path connecting to an intercooler pipe.
That could work :RTFM:
...provided there is enough exhaust power.
If there isn't, then at least the parallel twin T2's will.
do some decent amount of head work and you'll have more then enough flow to spool
Exactly what head work???
How about using a n2o to make more exhost power to spool the twin turbos.
I thouth that 10-20 hp n2o shot would be more then inaf to spool the turbos.
Exactly what head work???
How about using a n2o to make more exhost power to spool the twin turbos.
I thouth that 10-20 hp n2o shot would be more then inaf to spool the turbos.
yes but some minor porting and polishing and a 3angle valve job would do the same and you wont have to refill the bottle all the time
Chester, I personally stay away from nitrous, and like Bart says, porting the head significantly will give you the flow you need for this.
Well I've decided to go for a twin turbo setup so I guess this means I will be harrasing you all the time Arro. Or we could race and see who finishes one first haha. Kidding, I wont even have the other engine for at least a month but when I do It will go into full swing, 'cause there is nothing else to do here in the winter. I will probably drive all you folks crazy all winter with questions and advice so at least I warned you. So thanks for all the help so far.