This thread was saved without dates. "Around Mar 2005" is estimated from neighbouring threads.
finnally got the sucker in.. man what a pita the fsm basically was crap i think someone screwed with the wires in the past so i had to find all the proper signal wires myself.. i'll have pics and a writeup shortly....but i first need some tuning with a wideband
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_268_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_269_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_270_full.jpg
An SAFC I hmmm... how much was it. I kinda need one My car leans out to 14.7 in 2nd or higher and I'm starting to think it's a fuel map thing
I'm very interested to see how this works out for ya bart.
i had a thread on the old board on how to street tune the afc i was much happier with this meathoed than the dyno
i had a thread on the old board on how to street tune the afc i was much happier with this meathoed than the dyno
Why? Just curious.
when you get your car tuned on a dyno you are tuning it just for that a dyno. when you tune your car on the street is more what you are going to be doing with it... driving on the street. i may not make as much hp off the dyno but it is more streetable
I'm inclined to agree ... dynos are great, but they are such a controlled environment.
I think your average "car enthusiast" has no real concept of tuning, so they assume that "safe on the dyno" = "safe on the street"
then when the temperature drops, or they're climbing a hill, or banging all gears (not just 1:1 gears) they don't understand how it will affect the tune, make no adjustments and *boom*
well, 99% of motors never go boom they just go *-* and stop working.
Then when you go to start them they make that awesome cutlery in the dryer sound.
By tuning seat of the pants, you can at least tune driving the way you want to drive the car.
It's like keeping a screwdriver in the glovebox of a carbureted car.
Hop on it, hmmm ... it smells/sounds a bit lean.
1/2 turn
Hop on it
etc.
well the afc works great i just need to extend the wires a bit so i can mount it where i want it..so far i have topped the airflow at 89% at 5900rpms with about 13-14psi of boost... i still need to get my pot tb fabbed in so that the afc will use the low and high throtle settings....i'll get pics up l;ater when the install is done completly
as far as tuning im going to have my buddy tune it with his wideband o2 on the streets.. that way its accurate and hopefully it'll get me a few more ponies thru the power band
Ive had one wired in since june and did a bit of fiddling around with it and noticed a difference straight away by cranking up the fuel, its was even better when i sorted out the tps to read throttle position. If you want any info on how i sorted this bit out just say but im sure you know what your doing, and i described it not too long ago on the this board. Ive been meaning to get the set of 370 injectors and DIY fuel rail on for a while now (and getting a wideband o2 to sort them out) but with going to uni during the day and working every night ive got virtually no free time.
i added some pics so check them out
well the afc works great i just need to extend the wires a bit so i can mount it where i want it..so far i have topped the airflow at 89% at 5900rpms with about 13-14psi of boost... i still need to get my pot tb fabbed in so that the afc will use the low and high throtle settings....i'll get pics up l;ater when the install is done completly
as far as tuning im going to have my buddy tune it with his wideband o2 on the streets.. that way its accurate and hopefully it'll get me a few more ponies thru the power band
lol... I saw the 89% thing and kinda made me chuckle... not that that's not good or nothing... just that w/ my Z32 MAF and the SAFC2, I think I've maxed 20% at WOT and 6000rpms... lol. at idle I flow like 0.01% or something...
What are you using for the signal numbers bart? I think I have mine at 2 IN and 7 OUT signals (2 being the Z32 MAF, 7 being what worked best so far).
Thanks,
ya i used the 7in/out its the code for ca18det which is the closest out of all the ones listed
He should be using a MAP sensor to actuate the TPS signal wire.
He hasn't had the time/inclination to do it yet but I've been pestering him about it. He already has the MAP sensor. It's what his car uses for the factory boost gauge. But a better one out of a Chrysler Turbo car would be the way to go.
Bart, get some ABS, and some black vynil of similar to dash texture and cut yourself a clean plate to frame it in there.
already has the MAP sensor. It's what his car uses for the factory boost gauge.
So the factory boost guage uses an actual MAP sensor? Do all the chrysler turbo cars have the map sensors?
Bart, get some ABS, and some black vynil of similar to dash texture and cut yourself a clean plate to frame it in there.
im actualy going to use the stock trim pice that went around the cloack and cut it out so it will fit over the afc nicely..
So the factory boost guage uses an actual MAP sensor? Do all the chrysler turbo cars have the map sensors?
All Chrysler turbocars have map sensors. But the ones from 88 and up are the better ones. Map sensor is located on the passenger side strut tower.
Look for a hose leading to a little black box, with a wire leading on from that.
I have an SAFC II coming to me now how exactly could you use the MAP sensor? Maybe to smooth out the enrichment on boost (on my car when boost hits 5 it richens up)? it won't neccessarily(sp?) dictate throttle position becuase turbo cars can boost well before even half throttle. I would think a potentiometer TPS would yield better results.
The S-AFC will accept a 5V TPS sensor. You can use this to connect a GM style MAP sensor to it since it has an output of 0-5V. You just tell the S-AFC that you have a 5V TPS and then hook it to the MAP sensor output. This way you can have an on boost map and an off boost map. For example if you are using a 2 bar MAP sensor, then 0V will be vacuum, 2.5V will be atmospheric pressure in the manifold, and 5V will be 14.7psi of pressure in the intake manifold. So if you wanted the maps to change as soon as you made boost, you could switch to the boost map at 50% throttle. Then it will switch maps as it comes into boost.
But that's my point. With a turbo the intake pressure to throttle relationship isn't linear. I can have a good bit of boost at a quarter throttle depending on RPM and what gear I'm in. So i don't think relying on a MAP input for throttle would give a good tune. What I think would make more sense is to have a potentiometer TPS and a map sensor along with MAF sesnor. MAF gives the airflow, fuel can adjusted slightly depending on boost and the throttle would determine which air/fuel ratio you want to run.
I.E. make it so that at light throttle and cruise the fuel ratio remains 14.7:1. But when the MAP sensor reads X amount of boost to richen up the mixture a little maybe 13:1. and at full throttle to go to 12.5:1 or a little higher if you need a safety margin (might not need it) At full throttle the MAP input kinda becomes useless because you already have an Airflow reading and that's what you base the fuel map on at that point.
Now reading the directions for it it seems that you only have to make changes to the RPM for which you need them. however If you use bigger injectors or even a different MAF you basically need to retune the whole fuel map thereby causing a few problems. Am i making any sense here?
The explanation for why this is better is here:
http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/foolafc.html
but a snip from it:
"If you know the temperature and pressure of the air in the intake manifold, you can make a pretty good guess of how much air is there. Once you know how much air you have, you can compute how much fuel will be needed to combust with that air. "
Even the DSM guys like this and they used TPS for awhile. MAP works much better for road course/auto-x too. TPS doesn't necessarilly reflect boost. But BOOST always reflects fuel requirement. Think about it.
ya the map is the safest to use if you never want your car to go pop
what exactly does that thing do? im a little new.... but to get off subject, i have an 84 s12 myself and dont know what to drop in it and id ont have alot of money, anyone have any ideas? its an automatic so i dont know what tranny to use either...
But that's my point. With a turbo the intake pressure to throttle relationship isn't linear. I can have a good bit of boost at a quarter throttle depending on RPM and what gear I'm in. So i don't think relying on a MAP input for throttle would give a good tune. What I think would make more sense is to have a potentiometer TPS and a map sensor along with MAF sesnor. MAF gives the airflow, fuel can adjusted slightly depending on boost and the throttle would determine which air/fuel ratio you want to run.
I.E. make it so that at light throttle and cruise the fuel ratio remains 14.7:1. But when the MAP sensor reads X amount of boost to richen up the mixture a little maybe 13:1. and at full throttle to go to 12.5:1 or a little higher if you need a safety margin (might not need it) At full throttle the MAP input kinda becomes useless because you already have an Airflow reading and that's what you base the fuel map on at that point.
Now reading the directions for it it seems that you only have to make changes to the RPM for which you need them. however If you use bigger injectors or even a different MAF you basically need to retune the whole fuel map thereby causing a few problems. Am i making any sense here?
At cruise, you would be working off the o2 sensor anyway, so your tuning doesn't matter. The point of doing the MAP sensor thing is just to have a boost map and an off boost map. That way you can be at 16:1 or so when off boost, and 12.5:1 on boost. The throttle position is unimportant, and the MAP sensor will read somewhat similar to a TPS anyway since it's not going to make boost at idle or anything. With higher EGTs you can spool the turbo up a bit sooner as well, so it can be useful for a larger turbo too (although ignition retard would be the best way to spool the turbo up quick, but the S-AFC doesn't do ignition).
The point of doing this is because it really isn't important what the TPS says. If you go by the TPS, then you might have it set to be lean at 1/4 throttle, but then if you go up a hill and the turbo spools, it will still be lean and have a higher chance of detonation. If you have it based off a map sensor, if you hit that hill, it will richen up as it starts to come into boost. Because turbo's spool based off load, using a MAP sensor can provide a margin of safety if you have the car tuned to the limit of detonation.
You are right, if you change MAF sensors or injectors, then you will need to re-tune.
If you are like me and not tuned to the limit of detonation, then it's not as useful other than for better fuel economy when not in closed loop and not under boost (which isn't very often) and for helping to spool the turbo a bit sooner (something you probably won't need to worry about unless you are running a large t3 or t04 exhaust housing). It would be useful for bart since his car is mostly used for drag racing and the quicker you can spool the turbo the better.
ahh ok I understand now
I would suspect it's also more useful for road racing, rally, and auto-x, since frequent changes of RPM and throttle change the boost constantly.
Since I want to road race and I already enjoy canyon carving, setting it up based on MAP is the way to go for me.
Bart or 1=2, we could use a nice little chart of how you wired it up. I'm looking for mostly the ECU plug layout.
Bart or 1=2, we could use a nice little chart of how you wired it up. I'm looking for mostly the ECU plug layout.
http://www.club-s12.org/board/showthread.php?t=6468
I would suspect it's also more useful for road racing, rally, and auto-x, since frequent changes of RPM and throttle change the boost constantly.
Since I want to road race and I already enjoy canyon carving, setting it up based on MAP is the way to go for me.
Bart or 1=2, we could use a nice little chart of how you wired it up. I'm looking for mostly the ECU plug layout.
Since you are rarely at a low RPM when road racing it wouldn't be needed for that. Same deal for rally. Auto-x would only have merit at a tight 180, otherwise, with these cars geared as short as they are, there isn't any percievable lag, especially since you have to roll on the throttle to keep the wheels from breaking loose coming out of a turn anyway.