Turbo Header Construction

ok so i have had some time to finally start on this thing... so far its still being built so it wont be ready for anyone for a bit longer but keith and arro are on the list first, since i had told them id make them one a while back.....

heres some pics...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader001.jpg
heres basically all my setup minus a few u-bends.....oh and the reduced piece of pipe will be the collector minus it'll be a tad bigger...it'll be formed to fit the contours of our t2 flange. when finished the whole header will be ceramic coated for durability and have braces added for strength..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader002.jpg
this is the biggest pain in the ass.. making the tubes go from rectangular to round and clear each other.. man the port design on the exhaust side sucks balls on our cars

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/243000-243999/243105_281_full.jpg
heres a close up pic of the rectangular to round sections

UPDATE 12/05/04

another update... had some more time to play with the header.. here some pic of it tacked together.... i still need to clean up the joints and then they will be tig welded... other then that i just need to make the collector and the o2 housing for the turbo...ohh and i decided im going to do a external wastegate... not only will that give me better spool and boost stability, o2 dumping the wastegate(good 15-20hp just by doing this) and the o2 housing will be so much easier to fab up, and have much less backpressure which will spool the turbo even faster......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/1004.jpg

heres some in bay pics of the mani on the head..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/turboheader006.jpg

now i was going to try to make the headers all equal length but the outer too are hard.. the one nearest the firewall could be made the same length as the #2&3 runners but the #1 runner is to close to the a/c compressor so makeing it any longer cant be done unless you remeove the a/c.. but the 2-3inch difference shouldn't make a diff at all..

UPDATE 12/08/04

ok so i have been told that i need to make the runners equal length... so here you go they are within an inch of each other...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/1003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/1001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/1004.jpg

UPDATE: 12/13/04

heres a mock up of the mani and t28 in my bay......rough layout..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/bay3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/bay2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/bay1.jpg

UPDATE: 12/16/04

ok i have the collector mostly tacked up and ready to go... still needs some final touches.......notice the nice diffuser on the inside of the collector.. should help with flow alot...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR003.jpg

Looks likethhad flange came out good... you started working on the flange to runner section I see.. how thik is the runner piping? Thick enough?

16gauge but it will all be ceramic coated so it should hold up fine

Uhhhhhhh, not nice to tease. PICS DON'T WORK!!!! :guns:

Wow... that's huge... maybe I should too...hmm...

that will never hold up to the heat and weight of the turbo.16gauge but it will all be ceramic coated so it should hold up fine

Uhhh, he also said he will add some cross bracing for added strength... I think I want one too. Let me know your prices.

My car is giving me issues again...

even with bracing, i gotta agree with magnum. can you source something that a bit thicker wall?

are you planning on cutting out the center portion of your flange after welding or just really oversizing the mounting holes?

that square to round transition is a pain,huh? wait til you do the collector! hope you have a good chop saw.

well we'll see if the tubing breaks or cracks i can just change them out with s/s units but those are ridiculously $$$$ does anyone know a good place to get s/s fairly cheap.....and if i do end up making these for anyone you have the option to use s/s tubing for the added cost

I'm working on a similar deal, all in thought though. The problem that I forsee is that with the braces, they would have to be placed strategically and be of the right size so that the coefficient of thermal expansion of both the brace and tubes matches somewhat. I.E. when the parts expand as they get hot one particular part does not expand much more than another, because if this happens, then there will be cracked and or broken welds or components. Unfortunately the only real way to find this out is with some significant engineering abilities, a computer to figure it out, and some raw data on the properties of the steel of choice. We of course cannot figure this out, so a reasonable design and good 'ol trial and error will be the dictated method. There should be nothing wrong with that design and material size selection (and coating it for protection), I have similar hand drawings and mock ups, but putting it together and making it work will be the challenge.

ya i hope to make the bracing the right way on the first try..

Is it gonna be a top mount, or bottom mount?

409 is a pita to get cheap, unlike 304.... unless one is doing huge volumes where 409 gets a lot cheaper.

If the temps will be low <750 deg F, you could use 304 and if memory serves, we used to buy it for $0.70/foot in non-seamless ornamental grade with a 1-1/2" OD and a 0.049 wall. Online metals has it for $4-$5/foot if you buy 8 foot sections. I don't know of a source for low volume 409, one might get away with 316L, but then you have to heat treat it to reduce stress cracking. 316L is better than 304, but nowhere near as good as 409 for the range of temperatures it might encounter.

Let me know if you are interested in the 304, I can check with my machinist, and see where he gets it from. I know the distribution center we used was in Chicago, but since most of these outfits are nationwide, they probably have one fairly close to you as well.

Ron

409 is a pita to get cheap, unlike 304.... unless one is doing huge volumes where 409 gets a lot cheaper.

If the temps will be low <750 deg F, you could use 304 and if memory serves, we used to buy it for $0.70/foot in non-seamless ornamental grade with a 1-1/2" OD and a 0.049 wall. Online metals has it for $4-$5/foot if you buy 8 foot sections. I don't know of a source for low volume 409, one might get away with 316L, but then you have to heat treat it to reduce stress cracking. 316L is better than 304, but nowhere near as good as 409 for the range of temperatures it might encounter.

Let me know if you are interested in the 304, I can check with my machinist, and see where he gets it from. I know the distribution center we used was in Chicago, but since most of these outfits are nationwide, they probably have one fairly close to you as well.

Ron

ya thse prices arent bad but i need mandral u bends as well as staright.. and thats where the price gets ridiculous.. and with the mild steel im using thats going to be ceramic treated(which is good for up to 1600Degrees up) i should be fine ...

Is it gonna be a top mount, or bottom mount?

top mount.. and yes this means i will make you a new o2 housing as well

oh and i think that the most important thing with this header is going to be a instal of a flex pipe right be fore the cat....this wouold eliminate alot fo the stress the header would see due to the added strain the whole exhaust system puts on header.. theres a reason why many of our turboed car have probs with leaky exhaust mani's

oh and i think that the most important thing with this header is going to be a instal of a flex pipe right be fore the cat....this wouold eliminate alot fo the stress the header would see due to the added strain the whole exhaust system puts on header.. theres a reason why many of our turboed car have probs with leaky exhaust mani's

Good point.

I would make that bad boy flanged seperate though, if at all possible, because those flex pipes tend to blow out, especially if exposed to high pressure/movement. This would make an easy repair.

hey i added pic of the almost finished header.. its back in my first post.. heres a quick pic... i have engine bay pics in the first post

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_283_full.jpg

hey i added pic of the almost finished header.. its back in my first post.. heres a quick pic... i have engine bay pics in the first post

Looks sweet man! Coming along pretty good.
I didn't see the engine pic though :-|

i must have added it just after i made that post...

Run into any problems yet with clearance in the bay? Anything in the way?

other then my ic piping, but thats going to change anyways when the t28 goes in.... everything else should be just fine..... i thought i would have more clearence issues then i really did so im glad with that

can't you just shorten #2 and #3 runners to make them the same length as #1 and #4?

interesting design, very original.

can't you just shorten #2 and #3 runners to make them the same length as #1 and #4?

i could if i could get a mandrel u bend thats got a 1inch radius,, i used 2inch radius and that was the smallest i could get... but like i said the extra 2-3inches will never be noticed...

interesting design, very original.

thanks my original design was going to be very simple like this

http://sdsefi.com/head29.jpg

but there wasnt enough room so i did it the way you see it know.. i iike the way it looks now better then the way i was going to do it

i could if i could get a mandrel u bend thats got a 1inch radius,, i used 2inch radius and that was the smallest i could get... but like i said the extra 2-3inches will never be noticed...
Here's the smallest I could find......1 5/8 radius donuts.
But like you say....that little amount shouldn't make much difference.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/parts/tweekerparts/donuts.jpg

Ever consider changing to a bottom mount? with this design it would work perfectly. The turbo scrolls it that direction, the down pipe would be straiter, and it would most likley be easier for IC pipe work.

Ever consider changing to a bottom mount? with this design it would work perfectly. The turbo scrolls it that direction, the down pipe would be straiter, and it would most likley be easier for IC pipe work.

ya but turbo removal will still be a bitch.. and as far as top mount the downpipe and ic piping will be easy.. the downpipe will be a 90degree bend and straight into stock exhaust..plus the top mount will add some bling bling for sure....

I was pushing him for a topmount, I have no worries about the IC piping, or the intake piping...

This is his SINGLE turbo topmounter, and can be had in either a T2(5,8 ) flange or a T3 flange. If this works well, he'll be producing me a special manifold that will use twin T2's, topmounted.

It's pointless to make it bottom mounted, since we won't be able to locate the turbo in the original place anyways, so you'd have to have some custom pipework. This way we an do that but with more room.

Actually, once you but a real turbo on the car, its not so cramped under the stock manifold. You can actually take the turbo off easily and get to all the manifold bolts with very little trouble.

I am not sure what you are suggesting when you say a "real" turbo.... as opposed to....???

Anyways we aren't talking about the stock manifold, and the whole point in making this is because the stock manifold is a piece of sh!t in terms of flow.

Also, I can't imagine any T2 based turbocharger being all that easy to remove... if the turbo was off first, yes the OEM manifold's toughest nut (bottom rear) wouldn't be hard, but again that's not the motivation behind this turbo header.

And it certainly won't make a difference with the twin setup since the OEM is moot.

Oh yeah, and Bart, I suggest it would be easier for update reasons for you to put the updated pics in their own posts and not in the first post.

Something larger than a T2small. A larger exhaust housing helps to make the stud on the back of the bottom side of the manifold more accessible.

http://www.one-equals-two.net/posted/turbo-small.jpg

Well it's a T28 we're using for this first prototype anyways, but it's irrellevant considering my prior comments regarding the OEM manifold. Plus setting it up for a T3 will be easier and this should have alot less restriction than the OEM manifold allowing a T3 turbo to get better flow to the exhaust housing.

And again theres the twins, which in parallel will not be T2small at all.

i can gaurntee that no bottom mount header will allow you to remove a turbo easier then with a top mount... with a bottom mount you still need to reach for all the water/oil lines that are in confined areas especially if you use a bigger turbo..

another update... had some more time to play with the header.. here some pic of it tacked together.... i still need to clean up the joints and then they will be tig welded... other then that i just need to make the collector and the o2 housing for the turbo...ohh and i decided im going to do a external wastegate... not only will that give me better spool and boost stability, o2 dumping the wastegate(good 15-20hp just by doing this) and the o2 housing will be so much easier to fab up, and have much less backpressure which will spool the turbo even faster......

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_282_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_283_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_284_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_285_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_286_full.jpg

heres some in bay pics of the mani on the head..
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_287_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_288_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_289_full.jpg

now i was going to try to make the headers all equal length but the outer too are hard.. the one nearest the firewall could be made the same length as the #2&3 runners but the #1 runner is to close to the a/c compressor so makeing it any longer cant be done unless you remeove the a/c.. but the 2-3inch difference shouldn't make a diff at all..

plus using the stock mani on a t3 is pointless you have way too much restriction.....

I'm not saying that a bottom mount is easier. I was replying to the post by Magnum and Bart on making a bottom mount header. With the bends you are using, I don't see how a bottom mount would even be possible.

plus using the stock mani on a t3 is pointless you have way too much restriction.....

Yeah, 104mph trap speed worth. The stock manifold isn't really that bad, but there are issues with using it with a larger turbo, such as routing the downpipe. The real restriction lies in the T2 turbine housing and in the head itself.

Anywho, that setup kicks ass bart! I'd like to know how much you are gonna sell one for. (I am interested)

Man Bart, that looks freakin killer! I can't wait to see it all ceramic coated and beautified! Actually, it looks pretty mean in plain steel. Man, making me want to start back up on the CA20ET project... :mrgreen:

I like the look of that! very nice.
If you do find that its under too much strain weight wise it looks like (from the pics anyway) you could fit the manifold with some bracing and maybe even its own insulated mount type thing.

Very nice work.

Wow Bart, that new project is coming up really really nice. It makes me want to start up a CA20ET Project. Good Work. I can't wait to see the finish Product.

Yeah, 104mph trap speed worth. The stock manifold isn't really that bad, but there are issues with using it with a larger turbo, such as routing the downpipe. The real restriction lies in the T2 turbine housing and in the head itself.

104 trap now who did that( i havent seen any slips to prove that)...... ya the t2 turbine side is restrictive but the mani is almost as bad and when you use it with a larger turbo thats just as restrictive as the t2 turbine side.. not saying you cant use it but if you want the t3 to do the job its supposed too then you have to dump it and make a custom

Anywho, that setup kicks ass bart! I'd like to know how much you are gonna sell one for. (I am interested)

not sure i need to finish it and then get it ceramic coated and once i do that i can get all the cost together... i estimating in the neighborhood of 300-400 but it may be less...

I like the look of that! very nice.
If you do find that its under too much strain weight wise it looks like (from the pics anyway) you could fit the manifold with some bracing and maybe even its own insulated mount type thing.

Very nice work.

oh ya im planning on bracing it.. im sure the way i plan to do it about 80% of the weight will be transfered to the head flange so that should solve any integrity issues...

oh another topic i need to discuss..... ok i know some people have been asking me about it not being equal length on all the runners... now theres 2 sides to this

1. if you have a/c there really isnt a way to make runner #1 equal length cause the a/c compressor is in the way...

2. those without a/c i can make the #1&4 runners equal length.... but...

ok it comes down to what kind of power we will be putting down.... if we where to lay down 400+ponies then ya the unequal length would be noticable...but since most of us wont see more then 250-275hp the difference will never be noticed......me myself i will make mine eqaul length cause..

1. i a stickler to detail
&
2. i plan to run 300-350hp when all done....

I must worship this part when it arrives in our planet.

UPDATE 12/08/04

ok so i have been told that i need to make the runners equal length... so here you go they are within a inch of each other...

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_290_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_291_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_292_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_img_a/243105_293_full.jpg