Turbo Header Construction

ok im hosting my pics elsewhere so this red X crap is no longer a prob.. all pics should work from now on

never mind....I got it.
Hows the collector coming along?

it hasnt i had 2 finals this week so i wont be getting to it until thurs afternoon, but it should go smoothly now that i knw exactly how the collector needs to be engineered

UPDATE: 12/16/04

ok i have the collector mostly tacked up and ready to go... still needs some final touches.......notice the nice diffuser on the inside of the collector.. should help with flow alot...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/bartc_2/turbo%20header/COLLECTOR003.jpg

Oh, Bart my man, you're a genius!

You know what you have there? You got yourself a VELOCITY STACK! OMG it's brilliant, it will speed up the flow to the turbine like a tight little bottleneck. WOW!

OMG that IS sick!

Oh, and someone said...
Yeah, way to expand your horizons there. Go to one shop all the time and learn their ways and mindset and take it as the gospel truth.
Well I don't know about that "gospel truth" shit, but *duh* ... if knew jack shizzle about me or even bothered to notice the variety of platforms in my tagline, you'd know that I've probably seen more four cyllinder TURBO tuning than you have. Look man, I didn't COME to this club, and I think before you pin your judgements on my personal tuning experiences, know where I've come from. The only thing I've ever questioned was some strut tower brace you built, and it seems that ever since then you've been riding me and Bart.

Look man, I'm not here to chew your ass up and down the virtual internet street, but I'm gonna tell ya right out that there are people on here aside from myself that know their shit, even Dan knows alot more than he often cares to admit (he WAS the "Talon Temple" after all). Of those of us who contribute technical knowledge here, we've had lots of experience with a number of tuning platforms, and when we don't know something, we inevitably know someone who does know, and usually consult them right away about whatever it is. I for one have supergurus in Honda, DSM, Supra, Nissan Z, Shelby Dodge, and I didn't gain my knowledge from just parking my ass in one shop, drinking sodas all night long. I've had my hands in enough engines and around enough pro-circiut projects to have seen some things, and heard things, and even DONE things. I dont talk about that shit all that much because this is S12 specific here, but just because I don't own a shop and have some product to hock doesn't mean I'm without my own bag of tricks.

So please, for the good of the board, for the good of this and future discussions, don't just nitpick or judge unless you are CERTAIN. You may find it ironic considering my reaction to the brace but honestly the difference here is I have nothing to gain from criticizing a part, and a vendor(?) who doesn't even own one of our cars DOES have something to gain from criticism.

So don't hate. I didn't intend hate when I critiqued the brace. ANd if you don't believe that, I don't care. My rep on here speaks for itself. I'm honest to a fault, and I never have ulterior motives. It takes a long time to establish that kind of reputation. I've put in my dues here, and elsewhere. And I expect the respect commensurate with those dues, same as anyone else. Same as you.

This is a great product, and while it might not be to your standards, it is, as was blatently pointed out, still better than anything else out there. So, like I said about the brace before, if you build a better one, Bart knows I would abandon his part like yesterday's underwear for your part.

I don't even think Bart or I or anyone else minds criticism, but when it drags on, it becomes a contest of argument, and we lose the benefits of criticism, which are to aid development, not to just fight.

ya that was my thougts on the velocity stack.. funny thing is i was looking at my buddies full race tubby mani for his sr20det and saw the velocity stack and said to myself.. shit if they use it why cant i.... there manifold proved to gain 60whp over a log style and about 80 over the stocker so they must now there shit....

now as far as what arro said.... he has a point if we want to critique we need to keep it for positive gains..i at first was pissed when jason raped my first strut tower design... but i swallowed my pride and listened to what he had to say... and i think we can all agree that the outcome was something better then most aftermarket units...... without ja this forum would just not be the same....butt hat goes for everyone as well but ja was a crutal part of this board ever becoming what it is now.... so the last thing i will say about this is THANKYOU JASON FOR ALL THE YEARS OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE YOU HAVE SHARED WITH ME AND THIS WHOLE BOARD

sorry if this has been asked before

is it better to mount the turbo above the mani as bart is doing or to mount bellow ???

im looking in to manifolds for my s12

That looks awsome!! :evillaug: Can't wait to see the final product

sorry if this has been asked before

is it better to mount the turbo above the mani as bart is doing or to mount bellow ???

im looking in to manifolds for my s12

Doesn't really matter, it's more personal preference and packaging than anything. To me, the top mount is better for several reasons. It's easier to get at the turbo, makes oil return lines a cinch, and leaves more room for routing the downpipe. The only reason I could see for a bottom mount is if there's not enough hood clearance or master cylinder clearance...

top/bottom makes no diff in the performance of the turbo... alot has to do with cleanernce.... a bottom mount would be hard for me to make cause the engine mount and steering rod are very high in the bay.. so a top mount is the best choice...

So please, for the good of the board, for the good of this and future discussions, don't just nitpick or judge unless you are CERTAIN. You may find it ironic considering my reaction to the brace but honestly the difference here is I have nothing to gain from criticizing a part, and a vendor(?) who doesn't even own one of our cars DOES have something to gain from criticism.

I think what he was trying to do was offer advice for the good of your product. He was trying to tell you that you would have a much better product for our application if you used smaller runners. He backed up the information with quotes from books as well, as opposed to just saying "I hang out with Grand National guys, so I'm smart". He was trying to help you guys make the best product you can, which would pretty much be considered contructive criticism. No different from Magnum saying that he didn't think the wall was thick enough to support the turbo at the begining of the post.

My car is used pretty much as a dedicated autocross car. Me and Mr Bob both race it. We drive it on the street some as well (and since the auto-x season is over, it's mostly on the street now anyway). Going by your logic, that means he's driven the turbo model more than you (not that it would even make a difference). He doesn't get measurements for the stuff he makes by just guessing, he gets them by tearing my car apart and putting it all back together.

So don't hate. I didn't intend hate when I critiqued the brace. ANd if you don't believe that, I don't care. My rep on here speaks for itself. I'm honest to a fault, and I never have ulterior motives. It takes a long time to establish that kind of reputation. I've put in my dues here, and elsewhere. And I expect the respect commensurate with those dues, same as anyone else. Same as you.

No one ever said you weren't honest, just misinformed.

This is a great product, and while it might not be to your standards, it is, as was blatently pointed out, still better than anything else out there. So, like I said about the brace before, if you build a better one, Bart knows I would abandon his part like yesterday's underwear for your part.

I hate to tell you, but just because something is different from stock doesn't mean it's better than stock. Also, just because something is bigger doesn't mean it's better. A manifold that can flow well enough for 800hp would be all fine and dandy for a head that will also flow 800hp, and intake that will flow 800hp and an exhaust that will flow 800hp. But if you can only flow 300hp from the head, what would be point of a manifold that can flow 800hp? What it will do is cause a lose of velocity. On a turbo car, this means you will have more lag. On an N/A car this means you will lose some scavaging effect and have lower overall power.

I don't even think Bart or I or anyone else minds criticism, but when it drags on, it becomes a contest of argument, and we lose the benefits of criticism, which are to aid development, not to just fight.

Advice is just that, advice. If you don't want to follow it, then don't. There's no rule that says that we all have to agree for you to make something. That's the reason there are a lot of different companies that make car parts. Each group thinks they have a better product. Now that we are getting past some simple bolt ons, engineering is becoming important. If we were jerks we would just totally agree with you on the size and even recommend something larger and then come out with our own manifold with proper sized runners. Instead we are offering our take. You can go with whatever you want, if we think we can do better, maybe we will give it a shot (but SOHC development isn't high on our list of priorities since we are wanting to go DOHC).

On that note, I think you should maybe go with 2" runners. That way you can support 1200hp, and to make it better you should hog out those exhaust ports on your head as big as you can make them as long as you keep the same sized valves. Flow reversion is a myth, don't listen to anyone that says it's important. T04 turbos really are for 18 wheelers, and all size t04s are way too big. You should easily see 300whp with those 2" runners and a t28 and should be in the low 12s when you get it all done. Anything bigger than a t28 would just be too laggy, the A/R on the turbine isn't really important anyway, everyone knows it's the compressor size that makes more lag. That's why a t3 will always spool before a t3/t4 hybrid, because the t3/t4 is WAY bigger. Just ask those DSM guys, but not the ones that use 16g-big or t04e compressors, those big turbo guys don't know shit. The only reason not to use a big turbo is because you can't spool it, compressor surge only occurs if you don't have a blow off valve. Also, there is no difference between a race car and a street car. I hear the Fisco race car used 1200 lb/in springs, so I totally recommend those for the street. Preferably with a 3" drop, since race cars are low and they handle good too. If you've ever seen Suzuka raceway you will notice it has just as many potholes as any Northern street, maybe even more! Also, you can use gatorade instead of coolant in your radiator (it even comes stock in cars now, that orange coolant looks like orange gatorade because it's the same thing!). With Gatorade your car will cool down better between runs at the drag strip (gatorade is a much more efficient cooler than water, I also wanna be like Mike). I hear the electrolytes are good for your charging system too and you make more power because of less alternator drag. Those with an S-AFC know that the MAF usage goes up when it's cold. This is entirely because the air is cold in tempature and has absolutely NOTHING to do with colder air being more dense or anything. Nothing is better for a rotary than a set of hot cams. My V-Tec rep endorses all the above statements. Now that I've made my post argueing over wheither or not we are argueing, you will have my blind support in the future. We don't need no engineering!

(and the saddest thing is, I went to the refridgerator and got a Gatorade to confirm how to spell electrolytes. Mmmm, fruit punch and sweet electrolytes, tasty....)

here we go again :wall:

top/bottom makes no diff in the performance of the turbo... alot has to do with cleanernce.... a bottom mount would be hard for me to make cause the engine mount and steering rod are very high in the bay.. so a top mount is the best choice...

Agreed, the benefit of a top mount is ease of access and in our case it can actually be easier to make a downpipe since you will have more room to line things up before you start running into steering components. This gives an advantage of a bigger radius turn which would be better for flow.

Bottom mount would probably be easier to fit since it will tight fit with the hood with a top and might cause some discoloration of the hood if you took the insulation off. As long as you place it well with a bottom mount then the downpipe isn't hard, but you have less room to manouver things around. Also, as bart mentioned, the engine mount needs to be replaced if you go with a bottom mount and don't mount the turbo near the firewall.

Either is just as good, it's just which one fits better for you.

Postcount++

here we go again :wall:

That's why I'm going to always agree from now on, then it won't happen again. Besides, don't take it all so seriously, it's just a message board.

when did i day that i was only going to use 1.75od runners.. said a few times the reason i used 1.75 is because from my port polish my exhaust port had a circumfrance equl to teh circumferance of the 1.75od tubing i used...... for keith header i will more then likely use 1-5/8 tubing unless he want to do some head work or wants the 1.75od.... what ever velocity i might loose in my runners i will gain most back with velocity stack i have in my collector..ohh and you know why our stock mani's crack allthe damn time....BACKPRESSURE.. too damn much of it.... once the mani is done i am doing a dyno run with the exact turbo i use now and boost and see what the gains are that way all this bullshit will stop.. im guessing 20-30hp with t25 and any larger turbo you use you will see a much larger hp# vrsus using that same turbo on our stock mani's.....

as far as engineering for the header.... i did my research im not just slapping it together like you guys might think.. i talked to turbonectics... race eng.. and a few buddies who know more about turbocharging then everyone here combined.... and they all told me what i was doing was fine...believe it or not i dont care.... all i know is im trying ti and it if fails im redoing it.. im not going to not so something casue others say it might not work... for all i know those others are MISINFORMED...

we have no grip about you telling me that my runners are too big.... but really how the hell do you know have you tried it yourslef.. or are you just saying so cause others have said or wrote.. that....

i will make you a bet.... take your car to the track with the t3 and run 14psi.. i will take my car with my mani and t25 run 14psi and have a higher trap and et... then we will know whether the stock mani can flow what you think it can.. and wether i know what im doing or not....

i will make you a bet.... take your car to the track with the t3 and run 14psi.. i will take my car with my mani and t25 run 14psi and have a higher trap and et... then we will know whether the stock mani can flow what you think it can.. and wether i know what im doing or not....
Okay. How much do you want to put on it?

Okay. How much do you want to put on it?

im not betting money im betting that the stock mani just cant flow like you think it can, and that my mani is superior to the stocker... thats what most of all this bitching has been about

im not betting money im betting that the stock mani just cant flow like you think it can, and that my mani is superior to the stocker... thats what most of all this bitching has been about

I agree, no need to put money on it, just friendly competition. Competition should make us both develop better stuff, so I'm all over it. I agree as well that the only reason to do it is to show that the manifold flows better (and I'm sure it would if the runners where the same size as the exhaust ports). Would 1/8 mile times be good? I have several 1/8 mile tracks within 30 minutes, but no 1/4 mile tracks closer than 3 hours. I would hate to have to drive 3 hours only to waste the handful of runs I get just learning how to launch the car properly (I've never been on VHT). I believe the track you go has the 1/8 time and ET on it so we should be able to compare (although it wouldn't compare a whole lot more than launch and tires, still you will be able to compare against your old times which will give more useful info).

I said you were planning to use 1.75" because farther up you said

"the reason i choose 1.75od is cause from my port/polish the circumferance of the ports was equal to the cercumfrance of the 1.75 tubing

You also said that you could make a 1 5/8" one too, which I think would really be better for you, but you can do whatever you like. I've always supported you making the header, just disagreed on runner size. I still feel that it's totally your choice to make it whatever you like though, just trying to offer my opinion. I may come across as being hard headed in my beliefs, but that's because I am, so feel free to ignore me and do whatever you like any time I try to offer advice. I try to back stuff up with common sense and references (as does Mr Bob), but if you're not convinced, you're not convinced. Plus, as some other dude said, we aren't always right and just because we quote an author of a well known book doesn't mean he is right either I suppose.

Feel free to hog out your ports before making that run, and you may want to upgrade your injectors before taking the manifold out for some serious abuse. We're probably getting close to 100% duty cycle on them and any extra flow requirements might cause you to lean out. Maybe you can upgrade to some 370cc injectors, there's always a set on eBay. :wink:

i will have 370cc in very soon so fuel wont be an issue

ya the 1/8 would work but in addition a dyno run would show us alot since going t track has somany variables with launches and stuff....that sound good

agreed. The dyno would be best for this type stuff. Once again, it would be best to test your car, stock manifold on, stock manifold off since that way your cam wouldn't make the charts look much different. What you might want to do to show if it flows better at higher HP numbers would be to make one set of runs at a lower boost setting, say 14psi or so, then another set at 20psi or so, but I don't think the t25 will sustain 20psi, so it might not show anything. If you could get that t28 on there, it would probably be able to sustain that.

the dyno slip itself will show if flow was helped... you can telll by the crvature of the hp curve.. ya 20psi it too much on the t25 and 20psi on the t28 cant happen casue it will shatter the turbine wheel...15psi is the max psi that turbo can give....

I am straight locking this thread, because while one-equals-two has made a few reasonable points, he failed to see my PRIMARY point that I was disturbed by the personal turn this has taken.

Locking this thread is my way of saying DROP IT, start fresh, because none of you obviously took me serious, and in all fairness, with all the work some of us have had to do to get all this going, YOU SHOULD HAVE. Without a few of us that began it all, you wouldn't even be here. That's not bragging, it's just how it is. Believe me, I'm not feeling in the bragging mood, I'm actually rather disappointed and somewhat let down. But locking this thread, I will put that out of my mind for the sake of the board and assume that we can all get the hell along in future threads. THAT INCLUDES any taglines, thread topics, or posted comments about someone in an unfriendly manner. We are [supposedly] better than that.

k i will start a new thread and it will be heavily modded by me if anything at all gets out of hand again...